Looking for a balance between gratitude, hope, and the reality of this disease
texas yankee said
Apr 20, 2021
I've been here before, several times, with some words of encouragement or ESH to others who happen to be on a particularly bumpy part of their path, but mostly I've been here desperately looking for some ESH for myself when the disease throws me a curveball - this in one of those times when I'm looking for ESH for myself.
I've told ya'll how about 4 or 5 years ago my adult son moved back near me after a number of years living far away from me as he had problems with drugs, alcohol, money, jobs, and women - when he moved back here, he told me that he hadn't been drinking or drugging at all for at least a few months, he got a good job here and worked hard at it, he told me he was paying off debt that he acquired when he was using and drinking. I was skeptical (I'd been burned before), but I was cautiously optimistic and happy for him IF what he was saying was true. As time went along, he did better and better at the job, he seemed like a pretty normal guy - on his days off, sometimes we did Father \ Son stuff, I had him to my house for dinner and that went really well, and pretty much everything was truly looking good - along the way I somehow found the strength to stop enabling him - we hugged, we laughed, I congratulated him and told him how proud of him I was - many times - I was proud of myself, too, for FINALLY not enabling and for NOT trying to control his every action any longer - those were huge steps for me!
After a while, he moved back to the area he had been living in before coming here, and he moved in with his long-time (some bumps along the way) girlfriend - they seemed very, very happy, and they eventually got married - it was a simple but beautiful ceremony, and I can honestly say that I'd never seen my son, and his new wife, happier. My son was talking about his ambitious but achievable (with some hard work and follow through) plans for the future. In the meantime he was working regularly, apparently not drinking or using, and living pretty frugally. The changes I was seeing in his life were, for me, divine intervention. He didn't attend any AA meetings, but I reasoned that I, too, had gotten sober without AA about 28 years ago, and I still wasn't drinking, so perhaps he, too, could get and stay sober without AA. It worked that way for me.
About two or three months after the wedding, with his agreement, I planned a trip to see him and his wife and some other family members near him in the area. The "ambitious but achievable plans for the future" were gone and he had gotten involved with a "new business of his own", something that involved crypto currency and other related stuff, and he was over the top with it - I mean, OVER THE TOP. He had a laser focus and level of activity like I had never seen before. I didn't understand all of it, and I copld nnever get any straight answers to anything I asked about, but I stayed inside my hula hoop and didn't press with a lot of questions - he was living his life and it wasn't my place to tell him how to do it - but, man, I was very concerned knowing that the stuff he was into could make or lose A LOT OF MONEY in the blink of an eye - and he had absolutely no experience with this stuff prior to jumping in with both feet.
I saw some VERY concerning behaviors when I went to visit him and his wife - he talked on and on and on and on about nothing but the crypto stuff - I mean non-stop, like a fixation. Trying to get straight answers to simple questions about what he was doing was like nailing jello to a tree.
The other day, it all came tumbling down - HARD - I don't know the why or the how, maybe something to do with the recent drop in Bitcoin and Ethereum prices, but his new wife tells me that they went from a decent amount of paycheck and wedding money in the bank, to a negative balance - along with no money at all to pay bills that are overdue, and all kinds of other stuff that I won't belabor here - and his demeanor changes, in a split second, from crying on the phone saying "I need help", to "How are you doing Dad, everything is fine here" - it's like one of those multiple personality disorder people ya see on TV - unbelievably scary - there are other symptoms and signs that are equally troubling - can't \ won't go into them here. Another family member who loves him stopped there for a visit more recently and says that he is "completely off the rails" - "separated from reality" - his wife is beside herself - she loves him very much and she, unfortunately, trusted him to run the financial part of their life. He won't discus what's going on, he won't entertain any suggestions of talking with a professional, and law enforcement won't do anything because he "seemed normal" when they talked with him after we called them to please come by, due to our concerns about him.
SO, the point of all this - I am unbelievably grateful that he apparently stopped drinking and using about 4 or 5 years ago - I say apparently, because now, I'm not really sure whether he did or not - like all alcoholics, he's a master manipulator and a master made-up story-teller, and I was looking at him with my "Dad eyes" - so now I'm back to "who knows". I don't know if his current issues are alcohol related, drug related, some form of mental illness (that's my bet at this point), or some type of extreme, way overboard reaction to losing all their money. He was always one to go for the brass ring and bet big, and that looks like that's what happened with this crypto stuff he was into that kicked his butt.
And while I was giving thanks for seeing the significant improvements in his life (that I had no direct part in bringing about after YEARS or enabling, begging, pleading, crying, praying, etc. - HE made the decision to change after I gave up), I'm realizing, once again, that while I let my guard down with some optimism and some hope and maybe even some expectations for his future, I took my eye off the ball for a split-second and I forgot that THIS DISEASE NEVER LETS UP, NEVER GOES AWAY, AND NEVER DOES ANYTHING BUT DESTROY LIVES.
And while I know and truly believe that there's nothing I can do to fix him even now (fifteen years of Al Anon will eventually beat that into you, even for someone like me), here I sit wondering, "What can I do?", when I know that the answer is that he has to take action to change his life - I can't do it for him or cajole him into doing it.
Friends, have gratitude, and have hope, BUT NEVER, EVER forget the reality of this disease.
I had to vent - I'll call my sponsor tomorrow morning, but right now, it's just me and you guys, and you're good listeners - thanks for listening.
DavidG said
Apr 20, 2021
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Joe )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
a4l said
Apr 20, 2021
Sending hugs and support vibes. (((((( Texas yankee))))).
newnoz said
Apr 20, 2021
It is possible that he traded one addiction for another.
speculation is pretty much the same as gambling. Just my humble opinion.
He need a healthy outlet for his hyper focus.
Praying for both off you.
Nora
texas yankee said
Apr 20, 2021
"It is possible that he traded one addiction for another." - yep. I've heard it described as simply just using some different to scratch the same itch.
What I'm also wondering, though, is whether or not he's had some form of mental breakdown, IN ADDITION TO replacing booze and \ or substances with highly speculative "investing" - gambling, really. But when I was there, to hear him describe what he was involved in, it was almost a science-based process with little chance of losing much money.
Debb said
Apr 20, 2021
Texas Yankee, I just wanted to say that I am so sorry that this situation is causing you and your son/wife so much
stress and pain. It is so hard no matter what age your children are, to watch them go through bad times.
I do not know much about crypo currency investing, but I do know that it is one of the riskiest.
When our children falter those preverbal caretaker buttons get pushed. It is up to us as parents to separate
healthy support and caring with taking over and taking on our adult children's dilemmas. It is hard to sit
back and not try to take their pain away, but we had to learn the hard way and so do they.
PosiesandPuppies said
Apr 20, 2021
((((TY)))))
I remember reading the hope in your posts during the time of your son's wedding! Thank you for posting your struggles with letting go of this outcome. It is very important to know the reality of this disease. You may be correct, your son may be suffering from a co-diagnosis, but as you have stated, he is an adult and you must look from afar and stay within your hoop. It is incredibly hard as a parent, no matter the age of the offspring!
Offering support and the knowledge that you are heard.
Bettertomorrow said
Apr 20, 2021
Hi texasyankee,
So sorry to hear what you and your family are going through, but glad that you have support here and with your sponsor.
I remember very clearly sitting in an Alanon meeting and saying that I had neither hope nor expectations for my qualifier - the lack of expectations I could cope with, but the lack of hope really hit me hard. When I said that I hoped he would find recovery, it felt about as tangible as saying I hope I win the lottery. In other words I was setting myself up for probable failure. It took me a long time to reframe that one and say that I hope my AH finds recovery - but in the same way as I say that I hope all alcoholics and Alanoners find recovery or that I hope the world will find peace or hope we will find a cure for all cancers one day. What I had been doing was making my hope personal - when I was able to let that go, I found it much easier to keep the focus on me and hope for my own recovery over which I do have some control.
It's a tough one and I agree this disease is so cunning and just waiting to get its claws back in. I have a very good friend who had been in recovery for years and years and is currently going through a horrible relapse. I know that I can have gratitude for the years of recovery he had and the 'hope' that he will get back on the recovery road, but I can do nothing else about it. With my AH its been slightly harder as he has never sought recovery, but I am 'hoping' for a 'yet'. Again all I can do is keep the focus on me.
In fact my name is something that described my life - the hope that it would be better tomorrow. I have learned that today and this moment is all I have, so am trying hard to be better 'now' in this moment and let all expectations and hope of the future go.
Sending you lots of virtual support. BT (( ))
Iamhere said
Apr 20, 2021
(((TY))) - so, so sorry to hear of 'this' with your son. I hear you and fully appreciate and have witnessed the disease and it's ever-present pull of those with it in various forms. In my world, time and time again, I've been less guarded during bouts of forward motion only to be reminded over and over again how utterly baffling, powerful, cunning and progressive this disease is.
I still, in spite of so many 'setbacks' (my views) have hope for my sons. When I seek to understand, I am reminded of my own growth and how much/most of it has come because of pain and setbacks in my own thinking, actions, expectations, etc. I have been humbled to the ground over and over again that in spite of my deep and unconditional love for my sons, I truly do not know what is best for their journey. It pains me greatly to witness the crooked, hazardous route they often choose, and it is my sponsor who usually brings me back to the simple truth - they have their own higher power, and I am not it.
I have spent many years wondering whether it's this disease or mental health issues that are in the driver's seat at various points. I had a deep, driving desire that felt like a 'need to know'. After 15+ years of this disease combined with mental health issues in mine, I still don't know. Does MH issues make mine self-medicate? Does substance abuse cause mine MH issues? I have come to accept that I will never fully understand and knowledge does not give me any power - both are present, both feed each other, both are progressive and possibly deadly if not treated.
Selfish as it may sound, I am better able to stay on my side of the street or within my own hula-hoop as they both reside away from me. I pray for them every day, morning & night as well as all others in recovery or who would benefit from recovery. I know that they know I will always be of service in getting them well/keeping them well. I know that they know I will not enable them to continue with their disease. I know that they know where to go if/when they are ready/willing to seek recovery from both and I, like you, know I've done all that I know to do (in a healthy way) to help them get the help they need.
If possible, allow yourself a bit of time each day to worry and then pray. Allow yourself the gentleness of this program, your HP and our tools. Do all you can do for you so that if he reaches out, you can be of service without fallen into the hole of deep insanity and despair we know so well. I figure by keeping myself as healthy as I can, I'm better tooled to be of maximum service to any who want/need help, including those I love! Take good care of you and vent away any day/all day - we're here for you!
texas yankee said
Apr 20, 2021
First off, thanks to all of you that responded with ESH, words of sympathy and kindness, experience-proven practices that have helped you get through similar tough times, and sharing your doubts and questions, many of which I struggle with, too. Thanks, too, to those that responded with their hearts and prayers in unspoken and unwritten ways - I feel the love, and I'm grateful to know that I'm not alone here on this path-of-pain.
I wish I could update ya'll with a breakthrough or an insight into what's going on, but there were none today - and I fear that there may be none for a while, if ever. I did learn some troubling news from, of all people, my ex-wife (my son's mother). When I called her today to tell her what had been going on with our son, she mentioned that she had many of the same concerns and that she was going to call me - as every interaction with her has been for me over the past 25 years, today's interaction became even more painful when she told me that all this time when my son was living here with his mother - when I thought that he was clean and sober - all this while he had a "significant" drinking problem - I was absolutely dumbstruck that I didn't see it, given my own adventures with alcohol and drugs, and the fact that I saw him at least several times a week, up close and personal. Then dumbstruck turned into melancholy, and then depression - I had been living in what turned out to be a fantasy world, and now even that "forward motion" in my son's life was snatched away from him, and from me.
And today his wife of 3 months - truly, the love of his life - telling him that unless he got help and made changes, that she was going to divorce him and annul their marriage, elicited absolutely no change in his demeanor or actions.
I can't ride this train any longer with him. I wish I could cry my eyes out, but the tears just won't come - maybe my emotions are so shell-shocked that they're numb - and maybe that's a good thing.
WendyP said
Apr 21, 2021
HI Texas Yankee, On reading your sharings, My Heart, Thoughts, and Love go out to you and all your Family that involved with this, and watching and hearing of your Son's journey, I would love to be able to say something to help you, but that has already been said by so many, and I agree with all of them.
The tears will come and let them be, yourself, and all Your Family, and especially your Son, deserves your Tears. You are all worth it. I can remember a Doctor telling me once many years ago when I was so up set about what their Alcoholic Father had done to them, 'She told me that I couldn't protect my Children from the bumps and bruises of Life". That was really hard for me to hear and take on board. Some one else told me that to look up at the Stars, and know that God has bigger shoulders than yours, so you can give it all to Him.
From having a large family, being a Mother, Grand Mother, Great Grand Mother, watching all of them walk and live their lives, does not come easy for me, and I can never forget those words from my Doctor.
I will keep you all in my Prayers,
Love Wendy P.
texas yankee said
Apr 27, 2021
The people who say "it could always be worse" are right - cause this situation sure got worse. My son was picked up by the cops as a danger to himself or others, and now he's in the midst of a mandatory psych eval in a lock down facility - he's there till they complete the eval - if they determine that he is a danger to himself or others, they'll get a confinement order from a judge and he'll have a longer stay in an inpatient facility. If they determine that he's not a danger to himself or others, he gets released. How they could ever determine that he's OK is beyond me, but I don't know their evaluative criteria, and while he's my son, to them he's just a patient - and a patient without insurance as well. I've learned that in addition to adderall, he's been using cocaine and psychedelics - as well as erratic behavior issues and exhibiting a "tipped over" demeanor in general. My hope at this point is that they issue a commitment order and at least get to administer some anti-psychotic meds to him - obviously, he'll still have to deal with the alcohol and drug issues - if he's ready to seek help.
I'd like to ask the experts here for guidance and maybe some ESH on two things:
1) when an alcoholic \ addict with mental issues is so sick that they've essentially suffered a break with reality, how are they able to have even a momentary glimmer of clarity to realize \ acknowledge that they need help and let their willingness to ask for help actually reach out?
2) where my son lives there's a process for legal involuntary commitment, where loved ones and family can formally petition the court to have him committed, for a longer period than the short evaluation process I mentioned earlier. This longer commitment period involves treatment and likely medication, versus just evaluation. I know all about Al Anon telling me that I'll never be able to control the alcoholic, and believe me I have accepted that, but would this commitment process be acceptable given that he's had a mental break with reality, versus "simply" the classic effects of alcoholism?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts.
a4l said
Apr 28, 2021
My thoughts go out to you at this time it sounds so tiring and sad and stressful. Regarding the will to get help I can only share from experience that I had to want it but also it tended to just show up when i needed it. It probably showed up more times than I could see it. I also can say not a lot of people in my young life cared very much about whether or not I was ok. So I pretty much had to dig for the fortitude to stay alive and always weighed things up mostly without family or parental help. I was suicidal from the age of 6 or 7 and over the years I would bargain with myself about why to stay on the planet. Prior to having my first child, there were things I wanted to experience which I hadn't experienced that kept me alive. After my first child I had a reason to build a life. When i lost that child and his brother (not to death but still a total loss) i guess i felt obliged to remain living so as to not hurt them more and as I couldn't live in misery or the poverty of my childhood I made grand crazy plans to somehow "succeed". Today I am no longer bargaining to stay alive. My ideas of success have changed.I was blessed with a second family and my problems today are better ones I think and that's the reality of progress versus the fantasy I needed to make it thru dark places. Problems don't go away, you just have better ones than before. I think one of the most difficult things about addiction is that it masks a lot of inner demons that grow like fungus in the dark places we keep them by numbing out with substances/people. Then a whole host of other issues come from the addiction itself and it's so hard to know where one begins and ends from the other. The glimmer for me over the years has been the will to live for some reason or another. I know my grandmother always prayed for me. And maybe some others too. Somehow the right people were there at the right time in key moments of my life and they were never family or friends. Regarding sectioning a loved one........I'd say you're going to need your instincts to know what the next right thing is, and for that you need to self care with adequate food, sleep and any other tools that help you to feel ok. There are no right go to answers in situations like this. There's just doing the next right thing as it appears before you. My prayers go to you and your son ((((Texas yankee)))).
Debb said
Apr 28, 2021
{{a41}}, so happy that you are here with us and a member of the MIP Family!!
Texas Yankee, I can only say that when my daughter (who also did not have health insurance)
was placed in a behavioral health facility, she nor I had anything to say about it, the State
took over and she was held until she was released to a halfway home setting.
-- Edited by Debb on Wednesday 28th of April 2021 06:21:46 AM
Iamhere said
Apr 28, 2021
(((TY))) - my first thought is breathe, just breathe. You are a super bright dad and you know your son better than anyone at this point - even for all that you don't know about 'recent choices, behaviors, use, etc.' I know my state's 'hold status' beyond the 72 hours is simple criteria - they ask the patient is they are suicidal or homicidal. If no to both, they are released. Of course, for the many times I've engaged in this process, the family is then left holding the 'bag' and not at all sure what to do or where to go.
If your state has a process as suggested for longer term assistance/hold, and you believe this is a healthy option for your child, by all means explore it. There's a difference between boundaries and detachment vs. denying/abandoning. My point simply is as a mom, I had to do/try/suggest/explore all possible avenues for helping my sons seek a healthier life, esp. when they were incapable. When they were functional and I found myself caring more than they did, I knew it was time to detach and let go (let God).
Based on what you describe, and how you're seeing his current reality, I believe he needs any/all assistance you can find/get. I'm not mental health or addiction expert yet I know from our experience that it's a complicated set of diseases that are extremely difficult to treat when dual-diagnosis happens. Not impossible but certainly challenging.
Sending you tons of prayers for peace, strength and healing. It is these crisis points in my life and recovery where that Pause to Pray before I Proceed has been golden.
texas yankee said
Apr 28, 2021
Thanks for all of the heartfelt ESH - I've had the same sponsor since my first Al Anon meeting, and while he's a great guy and a great sponsor with a lot of program experience behind him, his son has been clean and sober now for many years - his son as gone on to do great things with his life, and I'm wondering if maybe my sponsor has "forgotten" how terrible this stuff is to deal with when a loved one is actually using and drinking, versus having a loved one with many years of solid recovery behind him. At any rate, I'll give my sponsor a call later today, but I've felt a very strong connection with the folks on this message board - and given that it's posting and responding and not in real-time (LOL, my brain sometimes doesn't work fast enough any more to keep up in real time), this format gives me an opportunity to think about what I wanna say change it before I hit "Post".
My virtual meetings have great folks in them that I've known and admired for a long time - BUT, the format is different than it is here, and right now, this format suits me better.
I think, too, that as good as the face-to-face meetings are, the folks here that respond, respond because they want to and because they have something important to add to the discussion -sometimes, sharing in meetings is almost more of an obligation to say something, versus really worthwhile insights that help me get through the day - usually helpful, for sure, but not nearly as impactful as some of the insights and ESH that I've been lucky enough to receive here. The insights I get here are not only heartfelt and sincere and directed specifically at my situation, but they are almost always the result of real-life experiences, often from dealing with the same type of junk that I'm dealing with.
I'm going to a face to face meeting today - it's a 30 minute drive, so I'll have some uninterrupted praying time both ways.
Thanks, again.
Maresie888 said
Apr 28, 2021
Texas Yankee
Personally I sincerely dislike the phrase #it could be worse# Neeedless to say I have told certain people who have a penchant for it not to.direct such a phrase to.me
You were remarkably graceful in spellingnthst out.
Please note your family most certainly are dealing with issues that extend beyond alcoholism. The guidelines for al anon are just that. They are a guideline. One of the books that many of us recommend is Getting them Sober. In fact Getting them So er is indeed one book/author who talks a great deal aboutbcuvil commitment. The fact your son is receiving a full evaluation is certainly good news. The fact he is in the hospital is a good thing. If he is a danger to himself he needs treatment. Wgen people do not want treatment it is a sign that they are mentally disturbed.
I hope you can find the right kind of support for yourself through this dire time. I certainly can understand how difficult it is to deal with someone who is incredibly self destructive
There is a lot of grief there in dealing with this situation. Perhaps you can contact NAMI. They have chapters in most states. They can most certainly guide you in petitioning
They are extremely knowledgeable
Maresie
Iamhere said
Apr 29, 2021
(((TY))) - sending tons of positive energy your way and glad to hear you went/are going to a face to face meeting today. I can't speak if this 'feels' the same for you, but when crisis has been happening here, no matter how much I pause and seek prayerful direction, I always have this underlying intense feeling of panic, heart-break and overwhelming worry. I share because it feels as if I am failing myself, my recovery, etc. yet what I have found is that it's truly my body and mind reacting to this current 'trauma'.
It is traumatic to watch your child self-destruct in front of your eyes. It's extremely stressful to have others expect you to know what to do not to mention the pressure I put upon myself to do the best next right thing. Which is why my first thought from my own experience is to just breathe, keep breathing. Take comfort in knowing you are taking action, with the best of intentions and you're truly not alone!
I hear you on the sponsor too. Mine arrived at Al-Anon because of her husband, and then later her daughter. Her daughter also has long term recovery and success while my boys are still 'experimenting'. There have been episodes here where I have called upon others in recovery with active children or newly recovered simply because they might have newer ESH that's relative to the here/now. I'm suggesting that adding a sponsor or several trusted program friends to your circle is always an option. I do believe that it takes a village to raise a child, and no matter their age/stage, they're still our child/ren.
Know that you, your son and his wife are all in my prayers. Take good care of you and know we're here as best we can be!!
texas yankee said
Apr 30, 2021
I was saying to someone the other day that from the beginning, I really liked something I had heard in Al Anon - "Take what you like and leave the rest". LOL, now, I'm wishing that there wasn't as much wiggle room as I deal with this issue - a hard and fast rule would be nice, regardless of whether or not I'd follow it. I've been talking with folks at my meetings and reading here, and, of course, there are different opinions - none of them resulting in an easy decision - I have an obvious history with enabling and a lot of difficult in dealing with it - I know that, and I know how enabling is not at all good for the alcoholics, or those who love them. And I wonder why, in this current situation, I'm again finding it difficult to back away and turn things over to God. Part of me feels that because he has an obvious mental issue, somehow that's different than an alcohol issue and that maybe\probably he's not able to make anything close to a realistic decision and that I need to do that for him - even though he has consistently been very resistant to getting any help for his depression problems over the years. Waiting on some feedback \ guidance from the doctor that's evaluating him.
PosiesandPuppies said
Apr 30, 2021
(((((TY))))))
I am hearing your quandary. I am of the opinion that mental issues are separate from addiction issues. However, one can directly affect the other, and can be presenting at the same time!
I am not sure how much the doctor will share with you due to HIPPA rules, but perhaps for your own peace of mind, you could ask the doctor, "Is my son capable of understanding his health issues/situation right now?" If the doctor answers "yes," than you know it is yet again time to "Let Go" of the outcome. If the answer is "No," then you could discuss with the doctor the next steps and how you can support your son - you may have to petition for the power to control medical decisions.
I am sure more will be revealed.
Wishing you peace today!
Iamhere said
Apr 30, 2021
(((TY))) - I too am wishing you peace today. Your share reminded me of an event for me during this pandemic.
When I got sober all those years ago, I set a boundary that I would never buy alcohol again. Essentially, I certainly was not wanting/willing to purchase alcohol for anyone else and have literally funded dinner for groups while separating out the alcohol bill portion.
Fast forward to the pandemic and my need to travel across the country to care for my aging parents with Covid. My mother drinks daily, wine is her choice, and she's fully aware that she can't drink at my home and that I don't buy alcohol. Well...with her dementia, it took several days to help her understand that she needed to quarantine to recover. She still forgot and we had close encounters, but improvement happened.
At some point, she suggested she was running low on wine and if I wouldn't buy it, she'd call a friend to do so. Mind you, they live in a senior area and the average age (during the pandemic) of their friends is probably 80. I was using Walmart grocery pick-up so went to the computer, searched for wine, and bought a whole case.
Before I picked up the grocery order, I had second thoughts and felt bad and did some circular thinking. I called my sponsor and we talked it out. Yes, our program suggests we never enable an alcoholic. However, life happens and apparently so do pandemics! We decided that in the best interest of the pandemic, my sanity, her wants/needs, my father's recovery as well as hers that it truly was the best choice.
You can darn well guarantee that never in my lifetime would I have considered buying alcohol for one I love who drinks too much as the 'right choice', yet here we are! We use our program to do the best we can, in the present, based on the information/facts we have. Yes, a set of rules would be extremely helpful at times, but my experience is that when I truly remain open, the answers really do come.
Continuing positive thoughts and prayers for all in your circle. I'll keep saying it - keep breathing! I have faith that this will all work out as it is supposed to.
texas yankee said
May 2, 2021
SO my adult son gets out of the Crisis Unit (Psych Ward) today - the Doctor has been non-responsive so we have no idea as far as the diagnosis or the go forward plan they recommended, if there is one. Everyone assumes that he's heading back to the house he shares with his new wife - he talked with her (while he was in "treatment") and, of course, he said that he "wants to stay sober", etc. - if I sound a bit sarcastic, I've heard that before, many times. One good thing to come out of this situation, for me, is that I'm now - FINALLY - at a point where I see things about him as they truly are and I believe that I now have enough strength to not engage in any enabling behavior - for me, that's been a long time coming.
His wife has started Al Anon, but she's very new to the program - I'm pretty sure that she's gonna have a very quick wake up call. I've been talking with her about boundaries, regarding him getting a job, finances, zero-tolerance policy on drugs and alcohol, etc. - I know that they need to be clearly defined and simple to understand so there's no wiggle room. Can anyone suggest or point me to some clear-cut boundaries that I can refer her to?
Debb said
May 2, 2021
TY, these were the most important Al-Anon program things that I found, in the beginning were
my top clear-cut personal boundaries:
1. Detaching with love and compassion
2. Accepting the 3 C's
3. Minding my own business
4. Avoiding AH's triggers
5. Finding all that I am grateful for by connecting with my HP daily
Does she have literature, C2C and One Day At A Time for daily reading?
Does she belong to a f2f group and/or chosen a sponsor?
You are such a good Dad-in-law for helping her!!
Freetime said
May 2, 2021
TY, my thoughts are with you! Just an idea about boundaries. Sometimes a spouse -- and I am an example of this -- might hesitate on setting personal boundaries (such as, I will go someplace else if you drink) because they feel they have no place to go if the alcoholic shows troubling behavior. Do you have the ability to offer her a safe place to stay, if she needs it?
texas yankee said
May 2, 2021
She is VERY new to Al Anon - I've urged her to read "How Al Anon Works", to go to F2F meetings, to look for a sponsor, etc. - but, as with most things in life, that's as far as I can go and not get "all in".
She does have a safe place to go, but the house they're living in belongs to her family, so her leaving (unless she's in danger) maybe isn't the best approach - unfortunately, with eviction notices and such being pushed out because of the Covid stuff, forcing HIM out if things get to that point isn't easy, or quick.
If there's any good in this, it's given me the strength to leave my enabling behaviors behind - hopefully, once and for all, but regardless, for today, for sure!
Maresie888 said
May 2, 2021
Texas Yankee
The mental health system leaves much go be desired. Then the laws around confidentiality make it even more impossible for a family to be able to plan
Staying sober is a tough undertaking
Being sectioned 51/50ed is a very humiliating experience. At no other time in an adults life are they made to stay in a certain spot
Some people do indeed calm down a lot because the entire experience is really sobering
The setting is generally grim tedious and extremely isolating
No one would want to.go back there
I.dont believe in the term enable. I know my behavior around the alcoholic was generally naive. But to really focus on my behavior would imply.that I.had some part n their alcoholism. That I somehow permitted it to happen. I didn't do that on any occasion
The three car's is s good base point. I didn't cause it I can't cure it. I.most certainly cannot control it
Sending you lots of loving thoughts
Keep us updated
Iamhere said
May 2, 2021
TY - I don't know if this will help or not but the last time mine came home sober from rehab, I imposed the exact rules that exist for the Oxford Houses (sober living, with structure, rules, curfews, work requirements, etc.) Each home has it's own rules but you get the idea.
I was selective from a variety of Oxford Homes as mine have been in a few.
As best I know, there are no lists around. The good news, and what always kept me hopeful:
- I was stronger than before, thanks to my own recovery.
- Mine knew exactly where to go and what to do if they wanted to be a part of recovery.
- They are very familiar with my boundaries, as well as my house rules.
I feel for your DIL. I am certain she's in shock still from the whole event. If I could offer one important suggestion it would be to get to a meeting, ZOOM or Face-to-Face and get a sponsor....any sponsor - even a temporary one. Someone that she can share with and can help with these boundaries and a quick lesson in detachment -- might help her with some early peace of mind.
Still sending tons of prayers your way. You're doing awesome!!
WendyP said
May 2, 2021
Hi Texas Yankee, You seem to be making strong positive decisions, A Step At A Time. I am really glad that your Daughter In Law is seeking help in Al-Anon, she has Hope for herself. After reading a lot of the Sharings, I can't offer any more, as I think that that are great. You have a lot of positive people in your corner.
One thing I can suggest that I found that worked/works for me, is when I am/have dealt with issues my Family, I had read the pamphlet "How can I help my Children". I was a good protector, caretaker, with my 3 when they were growing up. Because of the violence with their father, I became their protector, and caretaker. But after reading that pamphlet I could see that I was over protecting, and causing them some problems, so when they got into trouble, I would ask myself,"How can I help them and not hinder them".
The other thing I did was, when they were hurting, I would ask myself," What do they need.", Sometimes it would be a Mother, sometimes, a friend, and sometime when I needed to use Tough Love it would be an Al-Anon Mum. Sometime all 3 at once. I could only do the best that I could do at that time. I told myself that I was Human Being with Blood in my veins, and not Ice, and Love In my Heart, I would rather care too much than not care enough. You love and Care for your Son, your his Dad, and doing the very best that you can.
To me, there is no right or wrong way with what you are dealing with. You will find the answers to your Questions, and now you can help your Daughter in Law to find what you have found. I wish you all well, and will keep you all in my Prayers.
Love Wendy P.
texas yankee said
May 3, 2021
Thanks, everyone, for the continued ESH. My son was released yesterday and returned home - my son is continuing to exhibit erratic, unusual behaviors - not the typical behavioral stuff that I've heard about in Al Anon meetings that an alcoholic exhibits when they stop drinking but haven't started any kind of 12-Step or other treatment regimen - his behaviors are more what I'd refer to as "mental" problems, versus alcohol issues, but I know that there's often a lot of overlap. He's not argumentative or violent, just erratic and unusual. I've been looking for some kind of "trigger event" responsible for throwing him into this state, but I'm not a professional and maybe there's no trigger event here.
His brief confinement accomplished nothing, aside from maybe getting him "leveled down" enough (pharmaceutically controlled, I imagine), temporarily probably, so that they could discharge him without having to do what they should have done, which is get a judge's order for a longer term, involuntary commitment. SO, I'm now looking into an involuntary commitment process that'd at least get him evaluated, and hopefully, once he's leveled down to a point where he's more aware of what's going on, that he'll accept treatment, medications, etc. - but I can't make him take the meds or "stay on a better path" after the mandatory confinement process ends - my hope is that the mandatory confinement process is like a "bottoming out" for him, where he's able to see things at least a bit more clearly, and that he wants to get help.
LOL, just when I thought that the alcoholism and drug addiction stuff was so terrible, now the mental health issues get thrown into the mix.
Maresie888 said
May 3, 2021
The triggering event could be his marriage
Getting married is a very common thing
a4l said
May 3, 2021
Oh boy Texas Yankee. I imagine in that situation I would probably be in shock and denial, thus erratic. More will be revealed I'm sure. I have found people tend to open up more when I am not honing in on the immediate issues as I see them. Maybe just trying to establish communication. Ultimately it all leads back to the same place however which is our own self care and well being and supports. Can't fill from the empty pitcher as I am sure you already know. Take good care today with continuing prayers for you and the family.
Iamhere said
May 4, 2021
TY - I am also sending tons of positive energy/prayers for all. My experience is that time takes time - when mental health is added to the mix, it does complicate things a bit more. I do know now that I am not an expert and leaning into those who are was very helpful. The biggest challenge we had was similar to yours - a solid, meaningful diagnosis. It's just a slow process, so be gentle with you and keep leaning into your program - mine served me well as I am not a patient person by nature and truly can 'spin' when I'm waiting for information from others to determine if I can be of service.
(((Hugs))) for all - hang in there!
texas yankee said
May 10, 2021
I am finding that "the system", especially when it comes to mental health issues (which my son is also afflicted by), seems to try and find the least to do while fulfilling the minimum requirements of the law. I don't blame them, but it's frustrating - at least with alcohol and substance issues, AA has a solid, clearly-defined plan to help people - but the mental health world is so different - add in the HIPAA stuff that prevents the professionals from talking with me about my son, and it's SO frustrating. So, I am trying to do what I can to get my son the help he needs - in this case, hiring an attorney to file the paperwork for an involuntary commitment to a facility that treats both mental health issues and alcohol\substance issues.
Iamhere said
May 10, 2021
(((TY))) - my findings were similar and I was hoping things had improved in the last 5-10 years or that your state would be better than mine. It can be so overwhelming to navigate through the many persons who have a role (unclear to us) to play and lacking the 'urgency' I felt at the time. I will say that at various points, I did find resources that were more helpful and had more compassion than others.
I can also share that we did get to the other side. We are far from perfect and there's still issues along the way. Yet, we are all in a better place today than we were back then. Keep breathing, keep doing the next right thing and keep trusting your program and progress as you maneuver through this. Continued prayers and positive thoughts for you and all.
JerryF said
May 10, 2021
I have been following this thread for days using empathy and experience from my own journey remembering what it was like for me and what it is like for me now.
I left the computer and went into the kitchen and got the several daily readers that my wife and I use. When she came into the kitchen later she found me laughing and asked what is going on?
We have been in program for a while, me since 2/8/79 with a clear memory of my journey about the what it was like, what happened and what is like now including all of the crabbing, crying, yelling screaming, blaming, denying and all.
I cannot now help from laughing with the memories of what it was like and how my Higher Power and Sponsors and other members helped me walk the journey and make all of the monstorous changes that needed to be made. God I cannot believe I am still alive and mostly sane. Thank you God and this miraculous program you encouraged me to and walked with me.
The reader was Hope for Today and the page of the day May 10th. The subject was change including the work I put into it and the participation of my program and Higher Power and of course the outcomes. I remembered what it was like, what I learned and what it is like now. My journey wasn't/isn't any different than everyone elses and I thought my case soooo much more impossible until in meditations I could hear HP laughing in the back ground including the program that supported my changes.
I was sooo freaking caught up in the impossibility of change and recovery and the evidences of why that was right. NOT!! The slogan that saved my life was/ is "it works when you work it".
Thank you all for showing me the path and keeping me walking. ((((hugs))))
-- Edited by JerryF on Monday 10th of May 2021 01:54:18 PM
pinkchip said
May 10, 2021
Hi Texas Yankee....not sure if you are in Texas....I do know what the laws are in Florida in terms of involuntary commitment for substance abuse. It is much easier to have a loved one committed to treatment for substance abuse than it is for mental health. Mental health hospitalization generally requires you to be an imminent danger to self or others (so basically going to kill/harm self or others imminently). For substance abuse, it takes family members to file with the courthouse and to call for a hearing on whether or not a person's substance abuse is placing them in serious harms way to the point they need to be ordered into treatment. Most times the act is successful and the person is ordered to treatment. That being said, it is not necessarily inpatient treatment and, as you know - the person needs to be internally motivated at some point for lasting sobriety.
In Florida the commitment act initiated by family is called the Marchman Act. Your state likely has another law that similar and you'd have to figure that out.
texas yankee said
May 11, 2021
I've reached out to pinkchip via PM, but to preserve my anonymity, I'll skip posting about any of my or my son's location specifics at this point here on the public board - no harm done, pinkchip, but the situation on my end is complicated, and not everyone that's involved here is on the same page with me - I'd rather not have anyone I don't wanna hear from (none of you guys here) stumble across this and start sending their criticisms my way.
One thing I've found on this particular part of my journey - my visit into mental health land - is that while I thought that the whole drug and alcohol abuse situation was beyond hard to deal with (even remembering that I can't control anything about it), when ya factor in mental health issues that come to the forefront along with the alcohol and substance abuse issues, it's a whole new level of frustration, as well as even more pain and suffering -validation of the saying, "it could always be worse".
Something else that I also wonder about, again remembering that I can't control any of this, is the business about "as you know - the person needs to be internally motivated at some point for lasting sobriety" - I absolutely agree with that, but as with when an alcoholic is actively drinking or when an addict is actively using and it's senseless to try and talk with them because they're "out of their head", so to speak - but when that same person is also suffering from mental health issues and they're literally detached from reality, something tells me that the internal motivation to get and stay sober just might not be a part of their reality - and maybe it never will be - so I guess if\when that happens, then we just have to hang on and hope for the best?
Not criticizing anyone else's belief system, but when I hear anything about turning things over to my HP, maybe my faith isn't strong enough (if I have any faith left all all), but while I do believe that since God has "gifted" us with free will, and a significant level of intelligence and rational thinking capabilities, that when things go wrong, my HP ain't just gonna step in and make it all right - I know that I can't make it all right, but I think that with the free will "gift", that my HP has chosen to not step in and fix things that I screw up, nor to force me make a certain good decision because what I'm about to decide isn't in my best interest - maybe my HP has capabilities and such that I can't even conceive of, but the "turn it over" approach has just never worked for me. I guess that puts me on the Al Anon blacklist, but it's what it is.
Thanks for listening . . .
Debb said
May 11, 2021
Texas Yankee, we are all here to listen anytime!!
I sense from you that there is great reservation and fear for your son which is so so understandable,
but at the same time it is blocking all help for yourself!! This makes me sad.
Iamhere said
May 11, 2021
(((TY))) - you do you. Whatever that looks like, all that you've been through and all that you've learned in life and recovery will always serve you. Nobody here or beyond here is living your life, wearing your shoes, traveling your path. For the record, my higher power for a long, long while was Good Orderly Direction (GOD) vs. a divinely inspired religious icon of my youth teachings. Our program suggests only a power greater than self which can be what makes sense and works for you.
Glad you are reaching out to one with more experience and knowledge - my prayers continue for your son, you and the family. This part of your journey is difficult and my prayer and hope for you is forward motion, one day at a time. Hang in there - we are here for you, unconditionally!
texas yankee said
May 12, 2021
The paperwork was filed yesterday for my son to be picked up and involuntarily committed (doesn't that word sound terrible, when applied to someone you love?) to a facility that's certified to treat mental health and alcohol \ substance abuse issues. Given that his mental health issues are preventing him from making sound decisions on his own, I'm telling myself that the commitment the best approach for him to at least have an opportunity to get the help he needs - most of the time I believe that, but sometimes I'm wondering if I'm just trying to control things, versus letting natural consequences happen - maybe I'll reach a point where I feel that I've done all that I can do - I think that I'm getting pretty close to being there.
I thought it was a lot better (for me) when the police picked him up - now, with my name as the Petitioner on the application to commit him, I'll be the "bad guy" and likely not hear from him for a long time if \ when he realizes that I was the one that got him committed. Yeah, I'm feeling sorry for myself.
I've been here before, several times, with some words of encouragement or ESH to others who happen to be on a particularly bumpy part of their path, but mostly I've been here desperately looking for some ESH for myself when the disease throws me a curveball - this in one of those times when I'm looking for ESH for myself.
I've told ya'll how about 4 or 5 years ago my adult son moved back near me after a number of years living far away from me as he had problems with drugs, alcohol, money, jobs, and women - when he moved back here, he told me that he hadn't been drinking or drugging at all for at least a few months, he got a good job here and worked hard at it, he told me he was paying off debt that he acquired when he was using and drinking. I was skeptical (I'd been burned before), but I was cautiously optimistic and happy for him IF what he was saying was true. As time went along, he did better and better at the job, he seemed like a pretty normal guy - on his days off, sometimes we did Father \ Son stuff, I had him to my house for dinner and that went really well, and pretty much everything was truly looking good - along the way I somehow found the strength to stop enabling him - we hugged, we laughed, I congratulated him and told him how proud of him I was - many times - I was proud of myself, too, for FINALLY not enabling and for NOT trying to control his every action any longer - those were huge steps for me!
After a while, he moved back to the area he had been living in before coming here, and he moved in with his long-time (some bumps along the way) girlfriend - they seemed very, very happy, and they eventually got married - it was a simple but beautiful ceremony, and I can honestly say that I'd never seen my son, and his new wife, happier. My son was talking about his ambitious but achievable (with some hard work and follow through) plans for the future. In the meantime he was working regularly, apparently not drinking or using, and living pretty frugally. The changes I was seeing in his life were, for me, divine intervention. He didn't attend any AA meetings, but I reasoned that I, too, had gotten sober without AA about 28 years ago, and I still wasn't drinking, so perhaps he, too, could get and stay sober without AA. It worked that way for me.
About two or three months after the wedding, with his agreement, I planned a trip to see him and his wife and some other family members near him in the area. The "ambitious but achievable plans for the future" were gone and he had gotten involved with a "new business of his own", something that involved crypto currency and other related stuff, and he was over the top with it - I mean, OVER THE TOP. He had a laser focus and level of activity like I had never seen before. I didn't understand all of it, and I copld nnever get any straight answers to anything I asked about, but I stayed inside my hula hoop and didn't press with a lot of questions - he was living his life and it wasn't my place to tell him how to do it - but, man, I was very concerned knowing that the stuff he was into could make or lose A LOT OF MONEY in the blink of an eye - and he had absolutely no experience with this stuff prior to jumping in with both feet.
I saw some VERY concerning behaviors when I went to visit him and his wife - he talked on and on and on and on about nothing but the crypto stuff - I mean non-stop, like a fixation. Trying to get straight answers to simple questions about what he was doing was like nailing jello to a tree.
The other day, it all came tumbling down - HARD - I don't know the why or the how, maybe something to do with the recent drop in Bitcoin and Ethereum prices, but his new wife tells me that they went from a decent amount of paycheck and wedding money in the bank, to a negative balance - along with no money at all to pay bills that are overdue, and all kinds of other stuff that I won't belabor here - and his demeanor changes, in a split second, from crying on the phone saying "I need help", to "How are you doing Dad, everything is fine here" - it's like one of those multiple personality disorder people ya see on TV - unbelievably scary - there are other symptoms and signs that are equally troubling - can't \ won't go into them here. Another family member who loves him stopped there for a visit more recently and says that he is "completely off the rails" - "separated from reality" - his wife is beside herself - she loves him very much and she, unfortunately, trusted him to run the financial part of their life. He won't discus what's going on, he won't entertain any suggestions of talking with a professional, and law enforcement won't do anything because he "seemed normal" when they talked with him after we called them to please come by, due to our concerns about him.
SO, the point of all this - I am unbelievably grateful that he apparently stopped drinking and using about 4 or 5 years ago - I say apparently, because now, I'm not really sure whether he did or not - like all alcoholics, he's a master manipulator and a master made-up story-teller, and I was looking at him with my "Dad eyes" - so now I'm back to "who knows". I don't know if his current issues are alcohol related, drug related, some form of mental illness (that's my bet at this point), or some type of extreme, way overboard reaction to losing all their money. He was always one to go for the brass ring and bet big, and that looks like that's what happened with this crypto stuff he was into that kicked his butt.
And while I was giving thanks for seeing the significant improvements in his life (that I had no direct part in bringing about after YEARS or enabling, begging, pleading, crying, praying, etc. - HE made the decision to change after I gave up), I'm realizing, once again, that while I let my guard down with some optimism and some hope and maybe even some expectations for his future, I took my eye off the ball for a split-second and I forgot that THIS DISEASE NEVER LETS UP, NEVER GOES AWAY, AND NEVER DOES ANYTHING BUT DESTROY LIVES.
And while I know and truly believe that there's nothing I can do to fix him even now (fifteen years of Al Anon will eventually beat that into you, even for someone like me), here I sit wondering, "What can I do?", when I know that the answer is that he has to take action to change his life - I can't do it for him or cajole him into doing it.
Friends, have gratitude, and have hope, BUT NEVER, EVER forget the reality of this disease.
I had to vent - I'll call my sponsor tomorrow morning, but right now, it's just me and you guys, and you're good listeners - thanks for listening.
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Joe )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
It is possible that he traded one addiction for another.
speculation is pretty much the same as gambling. Just my humble opinion.
He need a healthy outlet for his hyper focus.
Praying for both off you.
Nora
"It is possible that he traded one addiction for another." - yep. I've heard it described as simply just using some different to scratch the same itch.
What I'm also wondering, though, is whether or not he's had some form of mental breakdown, IN ADDITION TO replacing booze and \ or substances with highly speculative "investing" - gambling, really. But when I was there, to hear him describe what he was involved in, it was almost a science-based process with little chance of losing much money.
stress and pain. It is so hard no matter what age your children are, to watch them go through bad times.
I do not know much about crypo currency investing, but I do know that it is one of the riskiest.
When our children falter those preverbal caretaker buttons get pushed. It is up to us as parents to separate
healthy support and caring with taking over and taking on our adult children's dilemmas. It is hard to sit
back and not try to take their pain away, but we had to learn the hard way and so do they.
((((TY)))))
I remember reading the hope in your posts during the time of your son's wedding! Thank you for posting your struggles with letting go of this outcome. It is very important to know the reality of this disease. You may be correct, your son may be suffering from a co-diagnosis, but as you have stated, he is an adult and you must look from afar and stay within your hoop. It is incredibly hard as a parent, no matter the age of the offspring!
Offering support and the knowledge that you are heard.
Hi texasyankee,
So sorry to hear what you and your family are going through, but glad that you have support here and with your sponsor.
I remember very clearly sitting in an Alanon meeting and saying that I had neither hope nor expectations for my qualifier - the lack of expectations I could cope with, but the lack of hope really hit me hard. When I said that I hoped he would find recovery, it felt about as tangible as saying I hope I win the lottery. In other words I was setting myself up for probable failure. It took me a long time to reframe that one and say that I hope my AH finds recovery - but in the same way as I say that I hope all alcoholics and Alanoners find recovery or that I hope the world will find peace or hope we will find a cure for all cancers one day. What I had been doing was making my hope personal - when I was able to let that go, I found it much easier to keep the focus on me and hope for my own recovery over which I do have some control.
It's a tough one and I agree this disease is so cunning and just waiting to get its claws back in. I have a very good friend who had been in recovery for years and years and is currently going through a horrible relapse. I know that I can have gratitude for the years of recovery he had and the 'hope' that he will get back on the recovery road, but I can do nothing else about it. With my AH its been slightly harder as he has never sought recovery, but I am 'hoping' for a 'yet'. Again all I can do is keep the focus on me.
In fact my name is something that described my life - the hope that it would be better tomorrow. I have learned that today and this moment is all I have, so am trying hard to be better 'now' in this moment and let all expectations and hope of the future go.
Sending you lots of virtual support. BT (( ))
I still, in spite of so many 'setbacks' (my views) have hope for my sons. When I seek to understand, I am reminded of my own growth and how much/most of it has come because of pain and setbacks in my own thinking, actions, expectations, etc. I have been humbled to the ground over and over again that in spite of my deep and unconditional love for my sons, I truly do not know what is best for their journey. It pains me greatly to witness the crooked, hazardous route they often choose, and it is my sponsor who usually brings me back to the simple truth - they have their own higher power, and I am not it.
I have spent many years wondering whether it's this disease or mental health issues that are in the driver's seat at various points. I had a deep, driving desire that felt like a 'need to know'. After 15+ years of this disease combined with mental health issues in mine, I still don't know. Does MH issues make mine self-medicate? Does substance abuse cause mine MH issues? I have come to accept that I will never fully understand and knowledge does not give me any power - both are present, both feed each other, both are progressive and possibly deadly if not treated.
Selfish as it may sound, I am better able to stay on my side of the street or within my own hula-hoop as they both reside away from me. I pray for them every day, morning & night as well as all others in recovery or who would benefit from recovery. I know that they know I will always be of service in getting them well/keeping them well. I know that they know I will not enable them to continue with their disease. I know that they know where to go if/when they are ready/willing to seek recovery from both and I, like you, know I've done all that I know to do (in a healthy way) to help them get the help they need.
If possible, allow yourself a bit of time each day to worry and then pray. Allow yourself the gentleness of this program, your HP and our tools. Do all you can do for you so that if he reaches out, you can be of service without fallen into the hole of deep insanity and despair we know so well. I figure by keeping myself as healthy as I can, I'm better tooled to be of maximum service to any who want/need help, including those I love! Take good care of you and vent away any day/all day - we're here for you!
I wish I could update ya'll with a breakthrough or an insight into what's going on, but there were none today - and I fear that there may be none for a while, if ever. I did learn some troubling news from, of all people, my ex-wife (my son's mother). When I called her today to tell her what had been going on with our son, she mentioned that she had many of the same concerns and that she was going to call me - as every interaction with her has been for me over the past 25 years, today's interaction became even more painful when she told me that all this time when my son was living here with his mother - when I thought that he was clean and sober - all this while he had a "significant" drinking problem - I was absolutely dumbstruck that I didn't see it, given my own adventures with alcohol and drugs, and the fact that I saw him at least several times a week, up close and personal. Then dumbstruck turned into melancholy, and then depression - I had been living in what turned out to be a fantasy world, and now even that "forward motion" in my son's life was snatched away from him, and from me.
And today his wife of 3 months - truly, the love of his life - telling him that unless he got help and made changes, that she was going to divorce him and annul their marriage, elicited absolutely no change in his demeanor or actions.
I can't ride this train any longer with him. I wish I could cry my eyes out, but the tears just won't come - maybe my emotions are so shell-shocked that they're numb - and maybe that's a good thing.
The tears will come and let them be, yourself, and all Your Family, and especially your Son, deserves your Tears. You are all worth it. I can remember a Doctor telling me once many years ago when I was so up set about what their Alcoholic Father had done to them, 'She told me that I couldn't protect my Children from the bumps and bruises of Life". That was really hard for me to hear and take on board. Some one else told me that to look up at the Stars, and know that God has bigger shoulders than yours, so you can give it all to Him.
From having a large family, being a Mother, Grand Mother, Great Grand Mother, watching all of them walk and live their lives, does not come easy for me, and I can never forget those words from my Doctor.
I will keep you all in my Prayers,
Love Wendy P.
I'd like to ask the experts here for guidance and maybe some ESH on two things:
1) when an alcoholic \ addict with mental issues is so sick that they've essentially suffered a break with reality, how are they able to have even a momentary glimmer of clarity to realize \ acknowledge that they need help and let their willingness to ask for help actually reach out?
2) where my son lives there's a process for legal involuntary commitment, where loved ones and family can formally petition the court to have him committed, for a longer period than the short evaluation process I mentioned earlier. This longer commitment period involves treatment and likely medication, versus just evaluation. I know all about Al Anon telling me that I'll never be able to control the alcoholic, and believe me I have accepted that, but would this commitment process be acceptable given that he's had a mental break with reality, versus "simply" the classic effects of alcoholism?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts.
{{a41}}, so happy that you are here with us and a member of the MIP Family!!
Texas Yankee, I can only say that when my daughter (who also did not have health insurance)
was placed in a behavioral health facility, she nor I had anything to say about it, the State
took over and she was held until she was released to a halfway home setting.
-- Edited by Debb on Wednesday 28th of April 2021 06:21:46 AM
If your state has a process as suggested for longer term assistance/hold, and you believe this is a healthy option for your child, by all means explore it. There's a difference between boundaries and detachment vs. denying/abandoning. My point simply is as a mom, I had to do/try/suggest/explore all possible avenues for helping my sons seek a healthier life, esp. when they were incapable. When they were functional and I found myself caring more than they did, I knew it was time to detach and let go (let God).
Based on what you describe, and how you're seeing his current reality, I believe he needs any/all assistance you can find/get. I'm not mental health or addiction expert yet I know from our experience that it's a complicated set of diseases that are extremely difficult to treat when dual-diagnosis happens. Not impossible but certainly challenging.
Sending you tons of prayers for peace, strength and healing. It is these crisis points in my life and recovery where that Pause to Pray before I Proceed has been golden.
My virtual meetings have great folks in them that I've known and admired for a long time - BUT, the format is different than it is here, and right now, this format suits me better.
I think, too, that as good as the face-to-face meetings are, the folks here that respond, respond because they want to and because they have something important to add to the discussion -sometimes, sharing in meetings is almost more of an obligation to say something, versus really worthwhile insights that help me get through the day - usually helpful, for sure, but not nearly as impactful as some of the insights and ESH that I've been lucky enough to receive here. The insights I get here are not only heartfelt and sincere and directed specifically at my situation, but they are almost always the result of real-life experiences, often from dealing with the same type of junk that I'm dealing with.
I'm going to a face to face meeting today - it's a 30 minute drive, so I'll have some uninterrupted praying time both ways.
Thanks, again.
Personally I sincerely dislike the phrase #it could be worse# Neeedless to say I have told certain people who have a penchant for it not to.direct such a phrase to.me
You were remarkably graceful in spellingnthst out.
Please note your family most certainly are dealing with issues that extend beyond alcoholism. The guidelines for al anon are just that. They are a guideline. One of the books that many of us recommend is Getting them Sober. In fact Getting them So er is indeed one book/author who talks a great deal aboutbcuvil commitment. The fact your son is receiving a full evaluation is certainly good news. The fact he is in the hospital is a good thing. If he is a danger to himself he needs treatment. Wgen people do not want treatment it is a sign that they are mentally disturbed.
I hope you can find the right kind of support for yourself through this dire time. I certainly can understand how difficult it is to deal with someone who is incredibly self destructive
There is a lot of grief there in dealing with this situation. Perhaps you can contact NAMI. They have chapters in most states. They can most certainly guide you in petitioning
They are extremely knowledgeable
Maresie
It is traumatic to watch your child self-destruct in front of your eyes. It's extremely stressful to have others expect you to know what to do not to mention the pressure I put upon myself to do the best next right thing. Which is why my first thought from my own experience is to just breathe, keep breathing. Take comfort in knowing you are taking action, with the best of intentions and you're truly not alone!
I hear you on the sponsor too. Mine arrived at Al-Anon because of her husband, and then later her daughter. Her daughter also has long term recovery and success while my boys are still 'experimenting'. There have been episodes here where I have called upon others in recovery with active children or newly recovered simply because they might have newer ESH that's relative to the here/now. I'm suggesting that adding a sponsor or several trusted program friends to your circle is always an option. I do believe that it takes a village to raise a child, and no matter their age/stage, they're still our child/ren.
Know that you, your son and his wife are all in my prayers. Take good care of you and know we're here as best we can be!!
I am hearing your quandary. I am of the opinion that mental issues are separate from addiction issues. However, one can directly affect the other, and can be presenting at the same time!
I am not sure how much the doctor will share with you due to HIPPA rules, but perhaps for your own peace of mind, you could ask the doctor, "Is my son capable of understanding his health issues/situation right now?" If the doctor answers "yes," than you know it is yet again time to "Let Go" of the outcome. If the answer is "No," then you could discuss with the doctor the next steps and how you can support your son - you may have to petition for the power to control medical decisions.
I am sure more will be revealed.
Wishing you peace today!
When I got sober all those years ago, I set a boundary that I would never buy alcohol again. Essentially, I certainly was not wanting/willing to purchase alcohol for anyone else and have literally funded dinner for groups while separating out the alcohol bill portion.
Fast forward to the pandemic and my need to travel across the country to care for my aging parents with Covid. My mother drinks daily, wine is her choice, and she's fully aware that she can't drink at my home and that I don't buy alcohol. Well...with her dementia, it took several days to help her understand that she needed to quarantine to recover. She still forgot and we had close encounters, but improvement happened.
At some point, she suggested she was running low on wine and if I wouldn't buy it, she'd call a friend to do so. Mind you, they live in a senior area and the average age (during the pandemic) of their friends is probably 80. I was using Walmart grocery pick-up so went to the computer, searched for wine, and bought a whole case.
Before I picked up the grocery order, I had second thoughts and felt bad and did some circular thinking. I called my sponsor and we talked it out. Yes, our program suggests we never enable an alcoholic. However, life happens and apparently so do pandemics! We decided that in the best interest of the pandemic, my sanity, her wants/needs, my father's recovery as well as hers that it truly was the best choice.
You can darn well guarantee that never in my lifetime would I have considered buying alcohol for one I love who drinks too much as the 'right choice', yet here we are! We use our program to do the best we can, in the present, based on the information/facts we have. Yes, a set of rules would be extremely helpful at times, but my experience is that when I truly remain open, the answers really do come.
Continuing positive thoughts and prayers for all in your circle. I'll keep saying it - keep breathing! I have faith that this will all work out as it is supposed to.
His wife has started Al Anon, but she's very new to the program - I'm pretty sure that she's gonna have a very quick wake up call. I've been talking with her about boundaries, regarding him getting a job, finances, zero-tolerance policy on drugs and alcohol, etc. - I know that they need to be clearly defined and simple to understand so there's no wiggle room. Can anyone suggest or point me to some clear-cut boundaries that I can refer her to?
my top clear-cut personal boundaries:
1. Detaching with love and compassion
2. Accepting the 3 C's
3. Minding my own business
4. Avoiding AH's triggers
5. Finding all that I am grateful for by connecting with my HP daily
Does she have literature, C2C and One Day At A Time for daily reading?
Does she belong to a f2f group and/or chosen a sponsor?
You are such a good Dad-in-law for helping her!!
She does have a safe place to go, but the house they're living in belongs to her family, so her leaving (unless she's in danger) maybe isn't the best approach - unfortunately, with eviction notices and such being pushed out because of the Covid stuff, forcing HIM out if things get to that point isn't easy, or quick.
If there's any good in this, it's given me the strength to leave my enabling behaviors behind - hopefully, once and for all, but regardless, for today, for sure!
Texas Yankee
The mental health system leaves much go be desired. Then the laws around confidentiality make it even more impossible for a family to be able to plan
Staying sober is a tough undertaking
Being sectioned 51/50ed is a very humiliating experience. At no other time in an adults life are they made to stay in a certain spot
Some people do indeed calm down a lot because the entire experience is really sobering
The setting is generally grim tedious and extremely isolating
No one would want to.go back there
I.dont believe in the term enable. I know my behavior around the alcoholic was generally naive. But to really focus on my behavior would imply.that I.had some part n their alcoholism. That I somehow permitted it to happen. I didn't do that on any occasion
The three car's is s good base point. I didn't cause it I can't cure it. I.most certainly cannot control it
Sending you lots of loving thoughts
Keep us updated
I was selective from a variety of Oxford Homes as mine have been in a few.
As best I know, there are no lists around. The good news, and what always kept me hopeful:
- I was stronger than before, thanks to my own recovery.
- Mine knew exactly where to go and what to do if they wanted to be a part of recovery.
- They are very familiar with my boundaries, as well as my house rules.
I feel for your DIL. I am certain she's in shock still from the whole event. If I could offer one important suggestion it would be to get to a meeting, ZOOM or Face-to-Face and get a sponsor....any sponsor - even a temporary one. Someone that she can share with and can help with these boundaries and a quick lesson in detachment -- might help her with some early peace of mind.
Still sending tons of prayers your way. You're doing awesome!!
Hi Texas Yankee, You seem to be making strong positive decisions, A Step At A Time. I am really glad that your Daughter In Law is seeking help in Al-Anon, she has Hope for herself. After reading a lot of the Sharings, I can't offer any more, as I think that that are great. You have a lot of positive people in your corner.
One thing I can suggest that I found that worked/works for me, is when I am/have dealt with issues my Family, I had read the pamphlet "How can I help my Children". I was a good protector, caretaker, with my 3 when they were growing up. Because of the violence with their father, I became their protector, and caretaker. But after reading that pamphlet I could see that I was over protecting, and causing them some problems, so when they got into trouble, I would ask myself,"How can I help them and not hinder them".
The other thing I did was, when they were hurting, I would ask myself," What do they need.", Sometimes it would be a Mother, sometimes, a friend, and sometime when I needed to use Tough Love it would be an Al-Anon Mum. Sometime all 3 at once. I could only do the best that I could do at that time. I told myself that I was Human Being with Blood in my veins, and not Ice, and Love In my Heart, I would rather care too much than not care enough. You love and Care for your Son, your his Dad, and doing the very best that you can.
To me, there is no right or wrong way with what you are dealing with. You will find the answers to your Questions, and now you can help your Daughter in Law to find what you have found. I wish you all well, and will keep you all in my Prayers.
Love Wendy P.
His brief confinement accomplished nothing, aside from maybe getting him "leveled down" enough (pharmaceutically controlled, I imagine), temporarily probably, so that they could discharge him without having to do what they should have done, which is get a judge's order for a longer term, involuntary commitment. SO, I'm now looking into an involuntary commitment process that'd at least get him evaluated, and hopefully, once he's leveled down to a point where he's more aware of what's going on, that he'll accept treatment, medications, etc. - but I can't make him take the meds or "stay on a better path" after the mandatory confinement process ends - my hope is that the mandatory confinement process is like a "bottoming out" for him, where he's able to see things at least a bit more clearly, and that he wants to get help.
LOL, just when I thought that the alcoholism and drug addiction stuff was so terrible, now the mental health issues get thrown into the mix.
Getting married is a very common thing
(((Hugs))) for all - hang in there!
I can also share that we did get to the other side. We are far from perfect and there's still issues along the way. Yet, we are all in a better place today than we were back then. Keep breathing, keep doing the next right thing and keep trusting your program and progress as you maneuver through this. Continued prayers and positive thoughts for you and all.
I have been following this thread for days using empathy and experience from my own journey remembering what it was like for me and what it is like for me now.
I left the computer and went into the kitchen and got the several daily readers that my wife and I use. When she came into the kitchen later she found me laughing and asked what is going on?
We have been in program for a while, me since 2/8/79 with a clear memory of my journey about the what it was like, what happened and what is like now including all of the crabbing, crying, yelling screaming, blaming, denying and all.
I cannot now help from laughing with the memories of what it was like and how my Higher Power and Sponsors and other members helped me walk the journey and make all of the monstorous changes that needed to be made. God I cannot believe I am still alive and mostly sane. Thank you God and this miraculous program you encouraged me to and walked with me.
The reader was Hope for Today and the page of the day May 10th. The subject was change including the work I put into it and the participation of my program and Higher Power and of course the outcomes. I remembered what it was like, what I learned and what it is like now. My journey wasn't/isn't any different than everyone elses and I thought my case soooo much more impossible until in meditations I could hear HP laughing in the back ground including the program that supported my changes.
I was sooo freaking caught up in the impossibility of change and recovery and the evidences of why that was right. NOT!! The slogan that saved my life was/ is "it works when you work it".
Thank you all for showing me the path and keeping me walking. ((((hugs))))
-- Edited by JerryF on Monday 10th of May 2021 01:54:18 PM
In Florida the commitment act initiated by family is called the Marchman Act. Your state likely has another law that similar and you'd have to figure that out.
I've reached out to pinkchip via PM, but to preserve my anonymity, I'll skip posting about any of my or my son's location specifics at this point here on the public board - no harm done, pinkchip, but the situation on my end is complicated, and not everyone that's involved here is on the same page with me - I'd rather not have anyone I don't wanna hear from (none of you guys here) stumble across this and start sending their criticisms my way.
One thing I've found on this particular part of my journey - my visit into mental health land - is that while I thought that the whole drug and alcohol abuse situation was beyond hard to deal with (even remembering that I can't control anything about it), when ya factor in mental health issues that come to the forefront along with the alcohol and substance abuse issues, it's a whole new level of frustration, as well as even more pain and suffering -validation of the saying, "it could always be worse".
Something else that I also wonder about, again remembering that I can't control any of this, is the business about "as you know - the person needs to be internally motivated at some point for lasting sobriety" - I absolutely agree with that, but as with when an alcoholic is actively drinking or when an addict is actively using and it's senseless to try and talk with them because they're "out of their head", so to speak - but when that same person is also suffering from mental health issues and they're literally detached from reality, something tells me that the internal motivation to get and stay sober just might not be a part of their reality - and maybe it never will be - so I guess if\when that happens, then we just have to hang on and hope for the best?
Not criticizing anyone else's belief system, but when I hear anything about turning things over to my HP, maybe my faith isn't strong enough (if I have any faith left all all), but while I do believe that since God has "gifted" us with free will, and a significant level of intelligence and rational thinking capabilities, that when things go wrong, my HP ain't just gonna step in and make it all right - I know that I can't make it all right, but I think that with the free will "gift", that my HP has chosen to not step in and fix things that I screw up, nor to force me make a certain good decision because what I'm about to decide isn't in my best interest - maybe my HP has capabilities and such that I can't even conceive of, but the "turn it over" approach has just never worked for me. I guess that puts me on the Al Anon blacklist, but it's what it is.
Thanks for listening . . .
I sense from you that there is great reservation and fear for your son which is so so understandable,
but at the same time it is blocking all help for yourself!! This makes me sad.
Glad you are reaching out to one with more experience and knowledge - my prayers continue for your son, you and the family. This part of your journey is difficult and my prayer and hope for you is forward motion, one day at a time. Hang in there - we are here for you, unconditionally!
I thought it was a lot better (for me) when the police picked him up - now, with my name as the Petitioner on the application to commit him, I'll be the "bad guy" and likely not hear from him for a long time if \ when he realizes that I was the one that got him committed. Yeah, I'm feeling sorry for myself.