I have gone to meetings in the past, but haven't stuck with it. I am just recently trying again.
What I learned in my short attempts at attending meetings before was very helpful to me. I recently had an experience that showed me that I really do need more help in dealing with the alcoholism in my family.
The religion in al-anon makes me wonder if the program can work as well for me. I am not religious and also not spiritual. I get nervous that I might have to read things out loud that I just don't know how I can tailor for myself into something that can make sense for me.
I want to work all the steps. I also don't want to do anything in a meeting that would draw attention to my lack of religion. I just want to go through the program like others.
The steps that are most difficult for me to get creative with are #6: Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. and #7 Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
Does anyone have any insight into this? I'm really not sure how to proceed.
MissM said
Jul 11, 2017
Awesome name.
My concept of a higher power, for the purposes of al-anon, is that it's a higher aspect of myself- an oversoul or something of the like. Like, you know how often you can do things on autopilot but you cant achieve the same thing when you try to concentrate? I see that as being "higher me" taking control when I allow her to. This works really well for me in relation to all of the steps...I can relinquish control to a higher, unseen aspect of myself.....perhaps it's my right-brain or something-this is my way of combining my innate solipsism with al-anon lol.
I dont know if there is anything else out there; there could be. If so, then I suspect my hp knows and interacts with said being. I find my program works very well when I just accept that I dont know and dont need to know the answer to "is there a god"; it doesn't have any impact on my ability to work this program
Hope this helps.
el-cee said
Jul 11, 2017
For me I needed help so badly that I was open to anything. I'm not really sure what being an atheist actually is. I know I gave that label to myself for years without true understanding. It was fear of God or an idea I picked up that God was a scary man who wanted to punish me for my sins. Alanon allowed me to take off this barrier. Along with many other crazy beliefs I hadn't updated since childhood. So many barriers to a new way of thinking and a new life. I looked up the word God a while back and just like alanon the word is not affiliated with any denomination and doesn't even seem to be a religious word. It's a word representing an idea I think and not religious but a spiritual idea. I've got my own God and mine doesn't live in churches and I have looked. My God lives inside me and other people and I find God in nature. My God is personally mine and perfectly mine. Go with the flow. Don't fret the small stuff. Step 2 can take a while and is ongoing.
mamalioness said
Jul 11, 2017
MissM wrote:
Awesome name. My concept of a higher power, for the purposes of al-anon, is that it's a higher aspect of myself- an oversoul or something of the like. Like, you know how often you can do things on autopilot but you cant achieve the same thing when you try to concentrate? I see that as being "higher me" taking control when I allow her to. This works really well for me in relation to all of the steps...I can relinquish control to a higher, unseen aspect of myself.....perhaps it's my right-brain or something-this is my way of combining my innate solipsism with al-anon lol.
I dont know if there is anything else out there; there could be. If so, then I suspect my hp knows and interacts with said being. I find my program works very well when I just accept that I dont know and dont need to know the answer to "is there a god"; it doesn't have any impact on my ability to work this program
Hope this helps.
Dear MissM.....your post sure helped ME....I am agnostic, and reading your post is VERY similar to how I now feel...I don't have to and DONT struggle with the "god" thing.....i sometimes don't care for all the reference to the "god" word in program, but I just by pass it and think of my HP as my higher self...that part of the divine that is within me....
MissM said
Jul 11, 2017
Yay, glad it makes sense to someone
hotrod said
Jul 12, 2017
Hello uncreativename i too had difficulty with the"Higher Power" aspect of alanon. It was, when it was suggested that I use the "alanon program", the principles and tools etc. as my concept of a Higher Power that I found my then HP and it worked perfectly.
in Step 6 where we become entirely ready to have HP(In my case the alanon program) remove my defects and again in Step 7, I had no difficulty asking the principles of the program to do so. I needed to use the tools in order to accomplish this and it worked.
Since that time, many years ago, I have developed a new concept of an all loving, all wise, all knowing Higher Power but still embrace the alanon program as my HP in time of stress .
I would not worry about saying anything about your concerns re HP at a meeting. In my meetings there are many who struggle with the idea of a Higher Power and they share openly of their concerns That is how we grow and develop new experienes in coping
Keep coming back.
Enigmatic said
Jul 12, 2017
Hi name, welcome. I, too, struggled with the HP concept, but was desperate to try a way other than mine. I had anger and distaste toward the god concept, and struggled at the mere mention of his name or anything related.
As has been outlined by others above, AlAnon doesn't ask for us to believe in anything we don't wish to, but a higher power of our own understanding, some choose to call this god, but I don't have to. This freedom allowed me, and angry, hurt atheist, to plug in a power that I could create that made sense when I came to Step 3 (my biggest struggle as I don't take turning my life and my will over to someone lightly) or any other place that uses the word god.
I found the key was my mental decision and desire to find a better way. I found incredible utility in the other concepts and slogans of the program, and chose to work on my god concept until I found a way to make it work. It took quite a while, but I made it. The change in my life as a result has been incredibly positive, and well worth the discomfort I felt while addressing this topic.
I wish you well on your journey of discovery and exploration
uncreativename said
Jul 12, 2017
Ah! Thank you so much hotrod!!! I'm so glad I asked this question here. Thinking of al-anon as the higher power will work for me too! I feel a lot better about this now!
hotrod said
Jul 12, 2017
Great !!!I am pleased that you will be able to keep coming back and using all the tools especially the Steps.
uncreativename said
Jul 12, 2017
And thank you for the thoughtful and caring replies of all who commented here.
I just wanted to be a little clear about atheism- I do not believe in the possibility of there being a god, so for me this is why it was challenging. The suggestion to see al-anon as a higher power really spoke to me and I can definitely feel comfortable with this and follow those steps I mentioned as most problematic now thinking of it in this way. I now feel that feeling left out of certain steps won't be a reason to stop going to meetings.
mamalioness said
Jul 12, 2017
hotrod wrote:
Since that time, many years ago, I have developed a new concept of an all loving, all wise, all knowing Higher Power but still embrace the alanon program as my HP in time of stress .
I would not worry about saying anything about your concerns re HP at a meeting. In my meetings there are many who struggle with the idea of a Higher Power and they share openly of their concerns That is how we grow and develop new experienes in coping
Keep coming back.
I'm agnostic only in that I don't buy into a loving g-d working in my daily life...the PROGRAMdoes if I work it.....hence my , also, looking at program as my higher power...that and my higher self within which program is helping me tap into.....thanks Betty...You and MissM are real parellel to what I think
mamalioness said
Jul 12, 2017
Enigmatic wrote:
. I had anger and distaste toward the god concept, and struggled at the mere mention of his name or anything related.
As has been outlined by others above, AlAnon doesn't ask for us to believe in anything we don't wish to, but a higher power of our own understanding, some choose to call this god, but I don't have to. This freedom allowed me, and angry, hurt atheist, to plug in a power that I could create that made sense when I came to Step 3 (my biggest struggle as I don't take turning my life and my will over to someone lightly) or any other place that uses the word god.
I found the key was my mental decision and desire to find a better way. I found incredible utility in the other concepts and slogans of the program, and chose to work on my god concept until I found a way to make it work. It took quite a while, but I made it. The change in my life as a result has been incredibly positive, and well worth the discomfort I felt while addressing this topic.
I wish you well on your journey of discovery and exploration
wow, me too...anger and distaste at a g-d who allowed me to be shattered as a child and no intervention...struggled with that for years and NOW, i just let that struggle go...I'm agnostic , program and my higher self within are my hp...i dont' even like the name G-D...my offender used it to justify his attacks on me......so again, I say program and that part of the universal divine that is within me are my HP......and i, too , have issues , turning my life and my will over to anything outside of me...not after what I went through as a child...forced to surrender to evil and depravity.....the very WORD---"surrender" makes me cringe...so for me?? disconnecting from the issue/person or stepping back....taking a time out...thats my step 3...it seems to work a lot better...if i can't do anything??? don't resist....walk away or step back or time out..whichever......surrendering to me =powerlessness and that = helplessness which is a big trigger for me.....i CAN make a choice..i CAN step back...i CAN just disconnect...I CAN get help...I CAN let the crap sort itself out....that is working my options....not being helpless
Enigmatic said
Jul 12, 2017
All good name, glad you found a more comfortable understanding.
With your use of the term "atheist" in your self description, I assumed (correctly, as it seems) that you do not hold a believe in the possibility of a monotheistic supreme being, a creator of life, etc, as many hold to be the meaning of God. If you intended to leave the door open to the existence of God, you would likely have used the term "agnostic".
I used the term "atheist" as well, with the intent of defining my belief as not believing in the possibility of The God of my upbringing. In AlAnon, this distinction matters not as it does not ask us to believe in The existence of God, but simply a power greater than ourselves, a god if you will, by its 3rd Merriam Dictionary definition of 'a being of supreme value'.
As we are powerless over alcohol and most other things outside of ourselves, that leaves a very wide door for us to walk through with literally anything we wish in our god/higher power basket.
Glad you are finding your way
uncreativename said
Jul 12, 2017
I don't experience anger at the idea of a god or anger toward religion. I am happy to hear that these feelings have given way to more positive ones for those who do though.
Iamhere said
Jul 12, 2017
uncreativename - welcome to MIP...I too like the name by the way! I was raised with religion but had stepped far, far away. I did not have discomfort with the word GOD - just the whole concept. It was suggested to me that when I came upon that word in literature or in meetings to replace my 'nasty thought' with the words/phrase Good Orderly Direction.
This was a huge gift for me in my recovery for a long, long while. Good Orderly Direction lines up with what Betty suggests too - the group, the program, etc. as your higher power. Hope this helps!
Keep in mind that I 'stumble through' my own belief crisis/issues by remembering this is a spiritual program. I define spirituality as my relationship directly with GOD (Good Orderly Direction). I do believe greatly a power greater than me has restored me to sanity....I use the term God and have reconciled with my teachings of youth....my way - I go one/one with my HP - I don't need organized religion to enhance that at all!
Keep coming back - you get to decide how you define your higher power! Have fun with it!
Aline said
Jul 12, 2017
Thank you for bringing up this topic. I was half-ashamed for thinking of my hp as my inner higher self, cuz I thought that's arrogant of me... I feel a LOT freer now to accept this concept of HP to myself (along with Alanon program as HP). I read some of the shares above, mirroring my gut feeling, and I don't think any of the posters here are being arrogant, so I shouldn't see myself as arrogant regarding this also. Thank you...
mamalioness said
Jul 12, 2017
Aline wrote:
Thank you for bringing up this topic. I was half-ashamed for thinking of my hp as my inner higher self, cuz I thought that's arrogant of me... I feel a LOT freer now to accept this concept of HP to myself (along with Alanon program as HP). I read some of the shares above, mirroring my gut feeling, and I don't think any of the posters here are being arrogant, so I shouldn't see myself as arrogant regarding this also. Thank you...
Aline, I am one of the agnostic who shared so I am glad that mine and others similiar shares helped you see that its NOT arrogant at all to say "higher self" I think we are set up in "threes" ---body/mind/soul....
break down the mind.... 1..the conscious (topical part that sees, hears, smells, etc., and HOPEFULLY filters out the wrong data fed to us--children don't have filters and are thus brainwashed by sometimes evil people like my parents) then 2..subconscious (power with out direction..acting upon what the mind believes and accepts as truth)....then ..3..superconscious or spirit or CORE self (the healthy, connected to the universe, untainted self) so when I refer to my higher self, it means the CORE of me..the real me
which is all part of #4, the universe...creation.... and it is THIS part that I believe is "corporate" not involved in my everyday affairs, but corporate...of the big picture..I am connected to it only in that I am a teeny part of the universe aka creation....so, because I see the evidence pointing to this in MY life, I go to part #3..my highest self aka spirit of me aka CORE self: the part of me that was before I came to earth (hence undamaged) and will be with me after I leave earth (hopefully more wise and of love)
I am agnostic because my mind and spirit are always, I hope, open to new concepts..like someone above said "leaving the door open"................i hope this made sense......its just what I think, anyway
uncreativename said
Jul 12, 2017
Thank you to those who have answered my question. To those who are discussing their opinions on my beliefs, please respect that I am not here to have that kind of discussion. I was just trying to figure out how to mesh what I believe with the al-anon program so that it's useful to me.
LexieA said
Jul 19, 2017
I think it is a journey to find something bigger than yourself. It doesn't happen overnight, but you are thinking.
I think it is great to turn all my defects over to someone else like they will be swallowed up and erased.
Even if you believe, there are always questions of why, what, and how is this possible.
For me, I see my higher power surround me and takes care of me. It's my shoulder to lean on.
I find he will meet you where you are with what you got.
We all believe in something like tomorrow is going to happen.
uncreativename said
Jul 19, 2017
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I haven't been able to go back to the meeting because I'm now feeling like I may be judged or lectured in the rooms. It's hard enough to get there in the first place. I can't deal with people making unfounded assumptions about on top of it. Im upset because I want to get help, but I'm now feeling like al anon isn't for me after some of the replies here were what I fear may happen in person in the rooms.
SerenityRUS said
Jul 19, 2017
Welcome UC,
I have followed this post with interest and wanted to share that depending on the area there are meetings in the area that are strictly atheist meetings.
Thank you for sharing your struggles and I really do hope you will find your way to the meetings because it is the right place to find healing regardless of who you need your higher power to be. :)
Hugs S :)
mamalioness said
Jul 19, 2017
So sorry to see you let go of Al-anon....I doubt really seriously you would be judged..I am Agnostic and nobody has judged me....I had a bad experience when I joined a meet, it was a Christian meeting (NOT Al-anon where a person's belief or non belief is their right---the higher power thing can be the program) anyway, I go to this meet and they are using scripture!!! I am like "whaaaaat is this????" and they (chair and members) TELL me that they will convert me...and they say "Oh you will believe/trust in God" ....I said "like hell you will, this is exclusionary and NOT Al-anon, I am outta here" and I left...BUT, in 13 years that was my only bad experience ..there are bad anything, one just has to go into it with open eyes and heart which I did and i had some great meets, I sat amongst other agnostics, atheists, all kinds of folks....it was great.....I hope you can find a GOOD meeting....with the exception of that one room, I never got judged or lectured....Al-anon welcomes , if it is a room that follows the traditions, everyone!! I used to chair on-line pal-talk meets and I absolutely loved it...met all kinds of folks and never was anyone slammed over religion...its your choice...I hope you stick around, but will not tell you what to do....I'm glad I didn't let that one horrid experience chase me away...
Iamhere said
Jul 19, 2017
Hey UC - as Serenity points out, there are also meetings in my area that are targeted for agnostics and/or atheists. I too hope that you are able to find a group that allows you to be you and recover at your time frame! There is hope and help in recovery...sending you positive thoughts and energy!
2HP said
Jul 19, 2017
dear friend, i relate to you. early in recovery, i asked my home group to stop using the Lord's Prayer. a month later, we voted. i stood alone and the
prayer stayed.
i stopped coming. weeks passed and i realized that group had something i wanted, a solution for dealing w alcoholism. i was being affected and my life was unmanageable and it wasn't going away by isolating myself again.
i went back with the attitude that i would focus only on what i liked and i would ignore or let go of what i didnt like.
it worked very well for me. if saying "never" isn't really working for you the way it didnt work for me, maybe you can try what i tried. i do know
this, whatever i focus on.... it gets bigger.
(((big hugs)))
Jerry F said
Jul 19, 2017
I was baptized into Catholicism at birth and also alcoholism (isms) also. I served the church with several alcoholic priests one of them a cousin...I wasn't turned off I was powerless and young so I just kept carrying on. I loved the choir services of the religion and involved myself in it including the Gregorian chants and part harmony and more which brought me lots of peace of mind and spirituality. 15 year ago I just couldn't find the spiritual fulfillment in the services and rites and so I walked committing to the program instead and my cultural beliefs. I am fulfilled now.
What made sense when I came to Al-Anon was being told "We are not a religion but if you work these steps religiously you will find the peace of mind and serenity we have acquired and I wanted that and achieved it. I don't object to the Lords Prayer...I don't say it all except up to the tools of HP at the end. I do say the 3rd step prayers and my own conversations with HP. I have heard others of other beliefs close the meetings with those statements and it works for me too.
Keep coming back ((((hugs))))
-- Edited by Jerry F on Wednesday 19th of July 2017 05:00:59 PM
-- Edited by Jerry F on Wednesday 19th of July 2017 05:01:40 PM
MissM said
Jul 19, 2017
I've never had anyone at a meeting ask me about my beliefs or lack of. I would think it very rude if anyone did, actually, unless I had asked for their input. I don't think anyone working a good program would be rude or unprincipled enough to ask you about or lecture you about your standpoint on religion and if they did, then like anywhere you encounter other people, you would be free to dismiss them as a bit of a jerk and walk away.
As far as I know, telling someone else what to believe or bringing religion into al-anon is a no-no.
Hope you find what you need one way or another anyway
Junenine said
Jul 19, 2017
hi. fellow atheist here, and i'm not there yet in terms of steps but i understand the feeling you describe. interesting thread.
on a related note, it took me several tries before i found a sponsor that felt like a match for me. one of the women i tried to work with was very specific when we spoke in referencing prayer and Jesus. i am not religious, nor am I Christian by birth. i mentioned that there's no Jesus in my life, but i can appreciate and respect her faith and i can be open to the power of prayer in general. long story short, we were not a match. i felt she was rigid in her approach and it made me uncomfortable. i was also put off by continued references to Jesus in a program that's supposedly nondenominational. i still don't understand how this person with 20 something years in program felt it was ok to speak to a newcomer with such specific religious language. and this is in NYC, where you cannot safely assume that someone is Christian to begin with. but to each her own, right?
that said, it all feels quite Judeo-Christian to me, especially in regard to the steps you mention. yet (big yet)... i love the openness of defining one's own higher power, and using the fellowship if that feels right. using ANYTHING except oneself. one of my concepts of HP is Nature. that's the simple version. i'm not saying it's an easy concept for me, and i'm still new to it all. but i love that so far as i understand the program, there is a lot of room to make your own sense within it. plus that "take what you like and leave the rest."
another woman with many years in program once said to me in passing "i mean, i wouldn't sponsor an atheist, but...." and i was shocked. too shocked to question why.
i guess i just wanted to chime in with saying you're not alone. and nobody should be judging you or anyone else... and if they are - their loss. keep it moving. find your people. we are out there!
shrnp said
Jul 19, 2017
uncreativename,
I have always heard the phrase, " A higher power of my understanding." I have never heard anyone at a meeting questioning someone's beliefs or having a discussion like what everyone is having here. This forum is not like a meeting.
uncreativename said
Jul 19, 2017
Thank you so much everyone. I decided to try a meeting again today. Oddly enough, the reading from the al anon book that was read did mention atheism. But in the story that was read, the narrator had been atheist and then ended up becoming religious again, which they said helped them. This gave me the opportunity to speak about what I posted here in the meeting, which was thankfully as open minded a meeting as I have attended so far.
As far as bringing up that I'm an atheist, in day to day conversation, that isn't something that comes up, but at meetings where there are steps, one of which specifically talks about god. Well, if you dont believe in the concept of a god, the step as it stands makes no sense. So, people who are in that position feel pressure either to abandon the step, pretend it speaks to them or be honest and talk about how they work the step for themselves. When the step is focused on god, religion has already been brought into the equation unfortunately.
Serenityrus had mentioned further up this thread about atheist Al anon meetings. There aren't any near me, but I was wondering, are they part of the al anon program? Also, the reading today opened up a discussion in the meeting I attended. Others at the meeting felt that more incusive terminology while reading the steps would be better, but no one was sure whether Al anon would be ok with a chapter replacing the word god with a different terminology that is more inclusive such as higher power. Does anyone know anything about this? Are al anon meetings required to use the exact terminology that's provided for the steps?
MissM said
Jul 19, 2017
I tend to just say my own word/words anyway and not worry what anyone else thinks. If reading from a book I will say HP instead of "God" and no-one has ever objected...and I don't object when they say God because it doesn't matter much to me what anyone else believes; I do this for me.
I know that there are athiest AA groups and I believe there is quite a bit of literature on the topic as it relates to AA so that might be worth looking at for more ideas on how to make it work for you. I don't believe there is much specifically geared towards al-anon but I could be wrong about that.
uncreativename said
Jul 19, 2017
Yes, I also would never object to anyone speaking from their own experience about religious beliefs or god.
The meeting I was attending wondered if it would be al anon approved for them to sub in "higher power" for "god" in the literature that is intended to be used by all members in the program.
In case I'm unclear, I'm not referring to members as individuals talking about their religion or god. I'm referring to the al anon steps and tools that are in place to help all members but are centered on god.
MissM said
Jul 19, 2017
Maybe try here: www.al-anon.alateen.org/contact-al-anon-family-groups
We are just a bunch of people talking about our al-anon experience to each other; no-one is an expert or authority on the topic and can't make a judgement on what can or can't be changed in meetings.
As far as I know people sub HP for God all the time. And I was referring to when reading out literature at meetings etc not private conversations. To be clear, when I read aloud from the official literature during the course of a meeting, or discuss the steps etc, I sub HP for God regularly. I've never asked permission.
Bo said
Jul 19, 2017
I hear you...I too struggled with this...first, I had to come to terms with al-anon not being a religious program. The references to God, and to a Higher Power, were there, part of the steps, words, program, etc. -- and I could make it my own, what I would like and want it to be. All things considered, I found al-anon to not be a religious program -- even though the references were there. My biggest stumbling block was that I didn't find the connection between a Higher Power and God. I believe in God, but didn't see or feel the connection to God being a or my Higher Power. Is God a Higher Power? I guess so, but I wasn't feeling it. Not sure if that makes sense.
However, when it came to a Higher Power, where I started to really understand and get better -- is when I saw a Higher Power as something other than me. Something outside of me. Something bigger and more powerful than me. Something or someone -- just not me. Was that the secret to success -- no, but it allowed me to immerse myself in the first three steps -- and that is where I got better.
In face to face meetings that close with the Lord's Prayer, I choose not to recite the words. That's just me. My choice. It is a religious prayer, but I've been told it is used in the context, parameters, and confines of al-anon, which is not a religious program. I've heard people say take what you like and leave the rest. That's what I do. Some people in meetings focus on God all the time. That's their choice. That's not the program, that is just has the person and what they do. Some focus on their Higher Power, and some choose to call that God, view their Higher Power as God, and see it, feel it, etc. That's their choice.
I hope you find some balance or connection as in my experience al-anon is a wonderful, life-saving program. I've seen miracles in the rooms. I wish you all the best and hope you can find what you need and want...to keep coming back.
uncreativename said
Jul 19, 2017
Thank you for your insight Bo, it's helpful to hear all different takes on it and how people were able to make it work. I do see the merit in the program outside of this, hence why I keep trying.
MissM, thank you for the link. I haven't experienced anyone subbing out the word god yet. Good to know that is happening somewhere! In the meeting I was attending today, since the reading did broach the topic of atheism and religion, another member asked permission from the person who was leading the meeting on whether people attending the meetings could sub in another word for god when reading out loud or pass on reading something that they found religious and didn't agree with. The person who lead the meeting was a really kind and open person who was interested in doing what was best for the group and listening to what was said. They just had never confronted this issue before of people asking if they could change the terminology as they read in the meetings.
KT2015 said
Jul 20, 2017
I am glad you tried a meeting and that you found it helpful. I really love Al Anon for the reason that no one ever pushed anything on me at any time. When I first went into the meetings and saw all the references to God I was skeptical that I wasn't going to be pushed to subscribe to something I wasn't sure about. THe great thing is it allowed me to explore what I believe and don't believe in. Growing up with a mother who is atheist I had never really looked at anything spiritual in any way before so it was a really safe place to explore without feeling pushed or pulled in an specific direction. One of the members in my group once said that the serenity prayer works even if you leave out God at the beginning. As a sort of mantra or thought instead of a prayer. That's just my experience with this topic take what you like and leave the rest.
uncreativename said
Jul 20, 2017
I'm happy to hear that it allowed you to explore things that help you KT2015.
In the case of someone who doesn't believe in the concept of a god though, the heavy inclusion of god in some of the literature and the steps are problematic. I can see how Al Anon would give people who want to explore these concepts a good and safe space to do so. Unfortunately, for the people who don't believe in these concepts, the program feels exclusionary and the step that focuses on god specifically is not inclusive. Since the literature and steps are presenting god as fact and newcomers to the program are talking to a room full of strangers, it doesn't feel very safe to have to be possibly the lone person to go against what is said in Al Anon issued material when it's time to talk about god. It puts people in a position of having to decide to play along or speak up.
Since Al Anon isn't meant to be a religious program, this is something that is a bit incongruent. And the people who experience this may abandon meetings because of it even though they need help. A program that isn't focused on religion but on recovery and brings religion into the conversation by mentioning god ends up with the focus for some people moving to how they will handle the conversations on god related to the steps as the 3, 5, 6, 11 and 12th steps all specifically reference god. That is anxiety provoking when you know you're going to have to stand up in front of people you don't know and who may be angered if you speak of your honest personal view of these steps, even if what you're saying is only focused on how you interpret those steps for yourself.
So, I'm wondering if anyone here has attended meetings where higher power was subbed in for god when reading the steps. That was the question the meeting I attended last night had: whether this ever happens in meetings and whether these meetings just made the decision on their own or contacted Al Anon for permission to do so.
Junenine said
Jul 20, 2017
wow. i've never heard the Lord's Prayer at a meeting! and i've been to lots of meetings.
SerenityRUS said
Jul 20, 2017
We always do the Lord's Prayer that is standard for my home group meeting. People are free to participate or not. Even the open AA meeting I attend is the Lord's Prayer , it depends on the meetings and location I have noticed.
One prayer that is done if the Lord's Prayer is not appropriate is the Prayer of Saint Francis. Again I am sure it depends on the area, how many meetings are in the area and the size of the location.
I'm talking about small town America.
Hugs S :)
MissM said
Jul 20, 2017
Must admit that I too found the use of those prayers very irksome to begin with as it doesn't fit at all with the idea of a "spiritual, not religious program". It's a very valid concern. I decided to just respect other people's wish to pray because it doesn't really harm me in any way. I don't participate in those parts and don't let it worry me. I don't see it as an integral part of the program or of the meeting, but rather as a side thing that others are doing around me and that's fine. I suspect if I decided to start saying my own little mantra or prayer or something, no-one would object, they'd just stand quietly and respect my right to do so. I think it's just about mutual respect; if that isn't present in a group then there is a problem.
One thing I will say is that the first 3 steps are about exploring your beliefs and that DOES NOT imply that you should reach an eventual conclusion that there is a god, or become religious or spiritual. It is about exploring your own understanding of what you have control over, and how you feel philosophically about the things that you can and cannot control, and how you can modify your thought patterns and behaviour to be more congruent with what you feel to be true...it needn't have anything to do with a god or a religion. So where you keep saying that certain steps can't work without a belief in a god, I believe that they can and I've been (I think) working a program pretty happily for several years without being troubled by the god issue.
The program is what you make of it, and you are free to tailor it to your own needs however you see fit. If you want it to work, you might need to spend some extra time on steps 1-3 just figuring out how to do that. I did; I spent months on them the first time and it was really rewarding- and I didn't come out the other side a religious person!!!! But you will have to do the work and the tailoring; there isn't going to be a perfect version of the program that someone has already written that fits you just perfectly, you know? There's no al-anon menu; it's more of a buffet lol.
So basically, there is no reason that being an atheist would prohibit you from working the steps very effectively. You aren't required to develop a belief in a god or a spirituality. However, if you aren't open to developing a deeper understanding of your own philosophy and what it means to you/how it works in your life then you probably won't benefit a great deal from doing those steps. I hope that makes some kind of sense, and sorry if I am harping on saying the same thing. It's a topic that interests me too, and one I don't get to discuss often
Junenine said
Jul 20, 2017
thanks, MissM. i feel similarly. it's a strange coexisting thing... the christianity present in the program along with the openness and idea of "spiritual, not religious".... and the individuality of making it work for each one of us. "live and let live"... i've never seen lack of tolerance or respect in a meeting (or here, for that matter) - which makes the rooms feel more civilized and safe than our larger civilization, in my experience. thanks for sharing.
I have gone to meetings in the past, but haven't stuck with it. I am just recently trying again.
What I learned in my short attempts at attending meetings before was very helpful to me. I recently had an experience that showed me that I really do need more help in dealing with the alcoholism in my family.
The religion in al-anon makes me wonder if the program can work as well for me. I am not religious and also not spiritual. I get nervous that I might have to read things out loud that I just don't know how I can tailor for myself into something that can make sense for me.
I want to work all the steps. I also don't want to do anything in a meeting that would draw attention to my lack of religion. I just want to go through the program like others.
The steps that are most difficult for me to get creative with are #6: Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. and #7 Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
Does anyone have any insight into this? I'm really not sure how to proceed.
My concept of a higher power, for the purposes of al-anon, is that it's a higher aspect of myself- an oversoul or something of the like. Like, you know how often you can do things on autopilot but you cant achieve the same thing when you try to concentrate? I see that as being "higher me" taking control when I allow her to. This works really well for me in relation to all of the steps...I can relinquish control to a higher, unseen aspect of myself.....perhaps it's my right-brain or something-this is my way of combining my innate solipsism with al-anon lol.
I dont know if there is anything else out there; there could be. If so, then I suspect my hp knows and interacts with said being. I find my program works very well when I just accept that I dont know and dont need to know the answer to "is there a god"; it doesn't have any impact on my ability to work this program
Hope this helps.
Dear MissM.....your post sure helped ME....I am agnostic, and reading your post is VERY similar to how I now feel...I don't have to and DONT struggle with the "god" thing.....i sometimes don't care for all the reference to the "god" word in program, but I just by pass it and think of my HP as my higher self...that part of the divine that is within me....
Hello uncreativename i too had difficulty with the"Higher Power" aspect of alanon. It was, when it was suggested that I use the "alanon program", the principles and tools etc. as my concept of a Higher Power that I found my then HP and it worked perfectly.
in Step 6 where we become entirely ready to have HP(In my case the alanon program) remove my defects and again in Step 7, I had no difficulty asking the principles of the program to do so. I needed to use the tools in order to accomplish this and it worked.
Since that time, many years ago, I have developed a new concept of an all loving, all wise, all knowing Higher Power but still embrace the alanon program as my HP in time of stress .
I would not worry about saying anything about your concerns re HP at a meeting. In my meetings there are many who struggle with the idea of a Higher Power and they share openly of their concerns That is how we grow and develop new experienes in coping
Keep coming back.
As has been outlined by others above, AlAnon doesn't ask for us to believe in anything we don't wish to, but a higher power of our own understanding, some choose to call this god, but I don't have to. This freedom allowed me, and angry, hurt atheist, to plug in a power that I could create that made sense when I came to Step 3 (my biggest struggle as I don't take turning my life and my will over to someone lightly) or any other place that uses the word god.
I found the key was my mental decision and desire to find a better way. I found incredible utility in the other concepts and slogans of the program, and chose to work on my god concept until I found a way to make it work. It took quite a while, but I made it. The change in my life as a result has been incredibly positive, and well worth the discomfort I felt while addressing this topic.
I wish you well on your journey of discovery and exploration
Ah! Thank you so much hotrod!!! I'm so glad I asked this question here. Thinking of al-anon as the higher power will work for me too! I feel a lot better about this now!
And thank you for the thoughtful and caring replies of all who commented here.
I just wanted to be a little clear about atheism- I do not believe in the possibility of there being a god, so for me this is why it was challenging. The suggestion to see al-anon as a higher power really spoke to me and I can definitely feel comfortable with this and follow those steps I mentioned as most problematic now thinking of it in this way. I now feel that feeling left out of certain steps won't be a reason to stop going to meetings.
I'm agnostic only in that I don't buy into a loving g-d working in my daily life...the PROGRAMdoes if I work it.....hence my , also, looking at program as my higher power...that and my higher self within which program is helping me tap into.....thanks Betty...You and MissM are real parellel to what I think
wow, me too...anger and distaste at a g-d who allowed me to be shattered as a child and no intervention...struggled with that for years and NOW, i just let that struggle go...I'm agnostic , program and my higher self within are my hp...i dont' even like the name G-D...my offender used it to justify his attacks on me......so again, I say program and that part of the universal divine that is within me are my HP......and i, too , have issues , turning my life and my will over to anything outside of me...not after what I went through as a child...forced to surrender to evil and depravity.....the very WORD---"surrender" makes me cringe...so for me?? disconnecting from the issue/person or stepping back....taking a time out...thats my step 3...it seems to work a lot better...if i can't do anything??? don't resist....walk away or step back or time out..whichever......surrendering to me =powerlessness and that = helplessness which is a big trigger for me.....i CAN make a choice..i CAN step back...i CAN just disconnect...I CAN get help...I CAN let the crap sort itself out....that is working my options....not being helpless
With your use of the term "atheist" in your self description, I assumed (correctly, as it seems) that you do not hold a believe in the possibility of a monotheistic supreme being, a creator of life, etc, as many hold to be the meaning of God. If you intended to leave the door open to the existence of God, you would likely have used the term "agnostic".
I used the term "atheist" as well, with the intent of defining my belief as not believing in the possibility of The God of my upbringing. In AlAnon, this distinction matters not as it does not ask us to believe in The existence of God, but simply a power greater than ourselves, a god if you will, by its 3rd Merriam Dictionary definition of 'a being of supreme value'.
As we are powerless over alcohol and most other things outside of ourselves, that leaves a very wide door for us to walk through with literally anything we wish in our god/higher power basket.
Glad you are finding your way
I don't experience anger at the idea of a god or anger toward religion. I am happy to hear that these feelings have given way to more positive ones for those who do though.
This was a huge gift for me in my recovery for a long, long while. Good Orderly Direction lines up with what Betty suggests too - the group, the program, etc. as your higher power. Hope this helps!
Keep in mind that I 'stumble through' my own belief crisis/issues by remembering this is a spiritual program. I define spirituality as my relationship directly with GOD (Good Orderly Direction). I do believe greatly a power greater than me has restored me to sanity....I use the term God and have reconciled with my teachings of youth....my way - I go one/one with my HP - I don't need organized religion to enhance that at all!
Keep coming back - you get to decide how you define your higher power! Have fun with it!
Aline, I am one of the agnostic who shared so I am glad that mine and others similiar shares helped you see that its NOT arrogant at all to say "higher self" I think we are set up in "threes" ---body/mind/soul....
break down the mind.... 1..the conscious (topical part that sees, hears, smells, etc., and HOPEFULLY filters out the wrong data fed to us--children don't have filters and are thus brainwashed by sometimes evil people like my parents) then 2..subconscious (power with out direction..acting upon what the mind believes and accepts as truth)....then ..3..superconscious or spirit or CORE self (the healthy, connected to the universe, untainted self) so when I refer to my higher self, it means the CORE of me..the real me
which is all part of #4, the universe...creation.... and it is THIS part that I believe is "corporate" not involved in my everyday affairs, but corporate...of the big picture..I am connected to it only in that I am a teeny part of the universe aka creation....so, because I see the evidence pointing to this in MY life, I go to part #3..my highest self aka spirit of me aka CORE self: the part of me that was before I came to earth (hence undamaged) and will be with me after I leave earth (hopefully more wise and of love)
I am agnostic because my mind and spirit are always, I hope, open to new concepts..like someone above said "leaving the door open"................i hope this made sense......its just what I think, anyway
Thank you to those who have answered my question. To those who are discussing their opinions on my beliefs, please respect that I am not here to have that kind of discussion. I was just trying to figure out how to mesh what I believe with the al-anon program so that it's useful to me.
I have followed this post with interest and wanted to share that depending on the area there are meetings in the area that are strictly atheist meetings.
Thank you for sharing your struggles and I really do hope you will find your way to the meetings because it is the right place to find healing regardless of who you need your higher power to be. :)
Hugs S :)
So sorry to see you let go of Al-anon....I doubt really seriously you would be judged..I am Agnostic and nobody has judged me....I had a bad experience when I joined a meet, it was a Christian meeting (NOT Al-anon where a person's belief or non belief is their right---the higher power thing can be the program) anyway, I go to this meet and they are using scripture!!! I am like "whaaaaat is this????" and they (chair and members) TELL me that they will convert me...and they say "Oh you will believe/trust in God" ....I said "like hell you will, this is exclusionary and NOT Al-anon, I am outta here" and I left...BUT, in 13 years that was my only bad experience ..there are bad anything, one just has to go into it with open eyes and heart which I did and i had some great meets, I sat amongst other agnostics, atheists, all kinds of folks....it was great.....I hope you can find a GOOD meeting....with the exception of that one room, I never got judged or lectured....Al-anon welcomes , if it is a room that follows the traditions, everyone!! I used to chair on-line pal-talk meets and I absolutely loved it...met all kinds of folks and never was anyone slammed over religion...its your choice...I hope you stick around, but will not tell you what to do....I'm glad I didn't let that one horrid experience chase me away...
I was baptized into Catholicism at birth and also alcoholism (isms) also. I served the church with several alcoholic priests one of them a cousin...I wasn't turned off I was powerless and young so I just kept carrying on. I loved the choir services of the religion and involved myself in it including the Gregorian chants and part harmony and more which brought me lots of peace of mind and spirituality. 15 year ago I just couldn't find the spiritual fulfillment in the services and rites and so I walked committing to the program instead and my cultural beliefs. I am fulfilled now.
What made sense when I came to Al-Anon was being told "We are not a religion but if you work these steps religiously you will find the peace of mind and serenity we have acquired and I wanted that and achieved it. I don't object to the Lords Prayer...I don't say it all except up to the tools of HP at the end. I do say the 3rd step prayers and my own conversations with HP. I have heard others of other beliefs close the meetings with those statements and it works for me too.
Keep coming back ((((hugs))))
-- Edited by Jerry F on Wednesday 19th of July 2017 05:00:59 PM
-- Edited by Jerry F on Wednesday 19th of July 2017 05:01:40 PM
As far as I know, telling someone else what to believe or bringing religion into al-anon is a no-no.
Hope you find what you need one way or another anyway
hi. fellow atheist here, and i'm not there yet in terms of steps but i understand the feeling you describe. interesting thread.
on a related note, it took me several tries before i found a sponsor that felt like a match for me. one of the women i tried to work with was very specific when we spoke in referencing prayer and Jesus. i am not religious, nor am I Christian by birth. i mentioned that there's no Jesus in my life, but i can appreciate and respect her faith and i can be open to the power of prayer in general. long story short, we were not a match. i felt she was rigid in her approach and it made me uncomfortable. i was also put off by continued references to Jesus in a program that's supposedly nondenominational. i still don't understand how this person with 20 something years in program felt it was ok to speak to a newcomer with such specific religious language. and this is in NYC, where you cannot safely assume that someone is Christian to begin with. but to each her own, right?
that said, it all feels quite Judeo-Christian to me, especially in regard to the steps you mention. yet (big yet)... i love the openness of defining one's own higher power, and using the fellowship if that feels right. using ANYTHING except oneself. one of my concepts of HP is Nature. that's the simple version. i'm not saying it's an easy concept for me, and i'm still new to it all. but i love that so far as i understand the program, there is a lot of room to make your own sense within it. plus that "take what you like and leave the rest."
another woman with many years in program once said to me in passing "i mean, i wouldn't sponsor an atheist, but...." and i was shocked. too shocked to question why.
i guess i just wanted to chime in with saying you're not alone. and nobody should be judging you or anyone else... and if they are - their loss. keep it moving. find your people. we are out there!
I have always heard the phrase, " A higher power of my understanding." I have never heard anyone at a meeting questioning someone's beliefs or having a discussion like what everyone is having here. This forum is not like a meeting.
I know that there are athiest AA groups and I believe there is quite a bit of literature on the topic as it relates to AA so that might be worth looking at for more ideas on how to make it work for you. I don't believe there is much specifically geared towards al-anon but I could be wrong about that.
www.al-anon.alateen.org/contact-al-anon-family-groups
We are just a bunch of people talking about our al-anon experience to each other; no-one is an expert or authority on the topic and can't make a judgement on what can or can't be changed in meetings.
As far as I know people sub HP for God all the time. And I was referring to when reading out literature at meetings etc not private conversations. To be clear, when I read aloud from the official literature during the course of a meeting, or discuss the steps etc, I sub HP for God regularly. I've never asked permission.
However, when it came to a Higher Power, where I started to really understand and get better -- is when I saw a Higher Power as something other than me. Something outside of me. Something bigger and more powerful than me. Something or someone -- just not me. Was that the secret to success -- no, but it allowed me to immerse myself in the first three steps -- and that is where I got better.
In face to face meetings that close with the Lord's Prayer, I choose not to recite the words. That's just me. My choice. It is a religious prayer, but I've been told it is used in the context, parameters, and confines of al-anon, which is not a religious program. I've heard people say take what you like and leave the rest. That's what I do. Some people in meetings focus on God all the time. That's their choice. That's not the program, that is just has the person and what they do. Some focus on their Higher Power, and some choose to call that God, view their Higher Power as God, and see it, feel it, etc. That's their choice.
I hope you find some balance or connection as in my experience al-anon is a wonderful, life-saving program. I've seen miracles in the rooms. I wish you all the best and hope you can find what you need and want...to keep coming back.
I'm happy to hear that it allowed you to explore things that help you KT2015.
In the case of someone who doesn't believe in the concept of a god though, the heavy inclusion of god in some of the literature and the steps are problematic. I can see how Al Anon would give people who want to explore these concepts a good and safe space to do so. Unfortunately, for the people who don't believe in these concepts, the program feels exclusionary and the step that focuses on god specifically is not inclusive. Since the literature and steps are presenting god as fact and newcomers to the program are talking to a room full of strangers, it doesn't feel very safe to have to be possibly the lone person to go against what is said in Al Anon issued material when it's time to talk about god. It puts people in a position of having to decide to play along or speak up.
Since Al Anon isn't meant to be a religious program, this is something that is a bit incongruent. And the people who experience this may abandon meetings because of it even though they need help. A program that isn't focused on religion but on recovery and brings religion into the conversation by mentioning god ends up with the focus for some people moving to how they will handle the conversations on god related to the steps as the 3, 5, 6, 11 and 12th steps all specifically reference god. That is anxiety provoking when you know you're going to have to stand up in front of people you don't know and who may be angered if you speak of your honest personal view of these steps, even if what you're saying is only focused on how you interpret those steps for yourself.
So, I'm wondering if anyone here has attended meetings where higher power was subbed in for god when reading the steps. That was the question the meeting I attended last night had: whether this ever happens in meetings and whether these meetings just made the decision on their own or contacted Al Anon for permission to do so.
wow. i've never heard the Lord's Prayer at a meeting! and i've been to lots of meetings.
One prayer that is done if the Lord's Prayer is not appropriate is the Prayer of Saint Francis. Again I am sure it depends on the area, how many meetings are in the area and the size of the location.
I'm talking about small town America.
Hugs S :)
One thing I will say is that the first 3 steps are about exploring your beliefs and that DOES NOT imply that you should reach an eventual conclusion that there is a god, or become religious or spiritual. It is about exploring your own understanding of what you have control over, and how you feel philosophically about the things that you can and cannot control, and how you can modify your thought patterns and behaviour to be more congruent with what you feel to be true...it needn't have anything to do with a god or a religion. So where you keep saying that certain steps can't work without a belief in a god, I believe that they can and I've been (I think) working a program pretty happily for several years without being troubled by the god issue.
The program is what you make of it, and you are free to tailor it to your own needs however you see fit. If you want it to work, you might need to spend some extra time on steps 1-3 just figuring out how to do that. I did; I spent months on them the first time and it was really rewarding- and I didn't come out the other side a religious person!!!! But you will have to do the work and the tailoring; there isn't going to be a perfect version of the program that someone has already written that fits you just perfectly, you know? There's no al-anon menu; it's more of a buffet lol.
So basically, there is no reason that being an atheist would prohibit you from working the steps very effectively. You aren't required to develop a belief in a god or a spirituality. However, if you aren't open to developing a deeper understanding of your own philosophy and what it means to you/how it works in your life then you probably won't benefit a great deal from doing those steps. I hope that makes some kind of sense, and sorry if I am harping on saying the same thing. It's a topic that interests me too, and one I don't get to discuss often
thanks, MissM. i feel similarly. it's a strange coexisting thing... the christianity present in the program along with the openness and idea of "spiritual, not religious".... and the individuality of making it work for each one of us. "live and let live"... i've never seen lack of tolerance or respect in a meeting (or here, for that matter) - which makes the rooms feel more civilized and safe than our larger civilization, in my experience. thanks for sharing.